McLaren’s round trip: 2012-2021
Discussion
I’ve just seen the 2021 McLaren and it got me thinking about the team and what an epic and (mostly) fruitless journey they’ve been on to arrive back at (hopefully) somewhere near the front of the pack in 2021 with Mercedes power.
They won the last race of 2012 with Jenson Button, but instead of evolving that year’s car, they decided to go in a different direction chasing peak downforce rather than predictable and drivable downforce. Those years with Perez and Magnussen were a slump in form, but nothing compared to the nightmare that was to come.
The idea from Ron Dennis that “you’ll never win as a customer” resulting in a switch to Honda was in theory a good idea, and has benefitted the sport as a whole, but for McLaren it was shambolic. You know how it was. They did a lot of good work with Honda to improve things, and then switched to Renault just as things were coming good. Red Bull and Alpha Tauri have won with Honda PUs now!
The switch to Renault was (in hindsight) only really a sideways move in 2018, as the Honda was really on the up at this point. And it really exposed just how poor the car really was- no more blaming Honda. After three seasons of improving pace with Renault, and a renewed focus on drivability, we’re back to a friendly McLaren with a Merc engine in the back. Did all this really need to take nine years? Mclaren’s annual budget is in excess of $250M, so that’s a two billion dollar experiment to end up (philosophically) exactly where you started nine years ago.
I know I’ve generalised a lot and I only have the info from the media, but as I was a kid/teenager watching F1, McLaren was always there or thereabouts. I hope they can make the step this year to mix it with Red Bull and Mercedes.
What do you think?
They won the last race of 2012 with Jenson Button, but instead of evolving that year’s car, they decided to go in a different direction chasing peak downforce rather than predictable and drivable downforce. Those years with Perez and Magnussen were a slump in form, but nothing compared to the nightmare that was to come.
The idea from Ron Dennis that “you’ll never win as a customer” resulting in a switch to Honda was in theory a good idea, and has benefitted the sport as a whole, but for McLaren it was shambolic. You know how it was. They did a lot of good work with Honda to improve things, and then switched to Renault just as things were coming good. Red Bull and Alpha Tauri have won with Honda PUs now!
The switch to Renault was (in hindsight) only really a sideways move in 2018, as the Honda was really on the up at this point. And it really exposed just how poor the car really was- no more blaming Honda. After three seasons of improving pace with Renault, and a renewed focus on drivability, we’re back to a friendly McLaren with a Merc engine in the back. Did all this really need to take nine years? Mclaren’s annual budget is in excess of $250M, so that’s a two billion dollar experiment to end up (philosophically) exactly where you started nine years ago.
I know I’ve generalised a lot and I only have the info from the media, but as I was a kid/teenager watching F1, McLaren was always there or thereabouts. I hope they can make the step this year to mix it with Red Bull and Mercedes.
What do you think?
You are right about the full circle for the reasons you've described and I completely agree. They've been on the wrong path for ages and still aren't back where they started this journey IMO.
The one big difference I see is in philosophy. In 2012, with the revolutionary instead of evolutionary 2013 car, and with the Honda engine deal, that was all in line with Ron's general philosophy that nothing matters but winning, as per his famous saying, 2nd place is first of the losers. Their aspirations through all of that were to be front runners, to win races and win championships.
Now, their aspirations are somewhat different, as they are looking to steadily move forward towards the front of the grid and be a competitive car, get decent results, and perhaps pick up a lucky win or two along the way when the faster cars fall over. No real eyes on winning championships, but rather simply doing better than they did last year.
Their relationship with Mercedes is also different. Their success prior to 2012 was based on an exclusive partnership with Mercedes, and when that opened up first with Brawn and latterly with Mercedes themselves becoming a works team, I think Ron felt then he'd never beat the Mercedes team using their own engine. He needed someone dedicated to winning with McLaren.
Now, they're happy enough to do the best they can with a Mercedes engine in the back, and I think they accept that they aren't going to beat Mercedes with that engine but have set their goals lower.
It's a better present, but for a better future I think Ron had the right idea but they took the risks and it was executed poorly. Now, McLaren have little hope of becoming the top team again unless Mercedes pull the plug on the team and move back to just being an engine supplier.
So I'd say the management change has meant they can accept a position now that was not an acceptable position for them with Ron at the helm.
The one big difference I see is in philosophy. In 2012, with the revolutionary instead of evolutionary 2013 car, and with the Honda engine deal, that was all in line with Ron's general philosophy that nothing matters but winning, as per his famous saying, 2nd place is first of the losers. Their aspirations through all of that were to be front runners, to win races and win championships.
Now, their aspirations are somewhat different, as they are looking to steadily move forward towards the front of the grid and be a competitive car, get decent results, and perhaps pick up a lucky win or two along the way when the faster cars fall over. No real eyes on winning championships, but rather simply doing better than they did last year.
Their relationship with Mercedes is also different. Their success prior to 2012 was based on an exclusive partnership with Mercedes, and when that opened up first with Brawn and latterly with Mercedes themselves becoming a works team, I think Ron felt then he'd never beat the Mercedes team using their own engine. He needed someone dedicated to winning with McLaren.
Now, they're happy enough to do the best they can with a Mercedes engine in the back, and I think they accept that they aren't going to beat Mercedes with that engine but have set their goals lower.
It's a better present, but for a better future I think Ron had the right idea but they took the risks and it was executed poorly. Now, McLaren have little hope of becoming the top team again unless Mercedes pull the plug on the team and move back to just being an engine supplier.
So I'd say the management change has meant they can accept a position now that was not an acceptable position for them with Ron at the helm.
As a McLaren fan since 1988, I think they still have ground to make up on the top two constructors. I think this year, that third in the constructors championship will be a good result for them. This will, hopefully make them attractive to sponsors plus will keep good prize money from FIA rolling in. They might win a race this year but I think that will only happen because of misfortune to the leading cars.
I started supporting McLaren when Ron Dennis was in charge. I am not sure that he would fit in to the modern F1. By that, I mean I do not know if the job he had then, actually exists now. I don't see Toto running Mercedes like Ron ran McLaren. F1 has changed over the past few years. Mercedes now employ over 1,000 staff to maintain two racing cars. When Ron ran McLaren, that was unthinkable. I am not sure that a team now could be run like it was then. Plus, unless I have it wrong, my understanding is that engine manufacturers can no longer put the new faster bits on their own engines first. My understanding is that if something is new and better, then they have to provide to customers also.
Whilst the Renault move was sideways in terms of power etc, what it did do was force the team to look long and hard at it self. Not all the problems were Honda. Some, God forbid, were closer to home. Initially I was wary of Zac Brown........what on earth does an American know about F1??? Well, he has done a great job thus far. Of course the next step is the most difficult. But, so far, so good. Maybe it highlights that having huge sums of money do not stop bad decisions being made.
Factor in the natural ebbs and flows of sport and things can take time to get right. With a championship winning engine, some new sponsors and a race winning driver, the prospects, on paper at least, look great. And as a McLaren fan, it pleases me immensely to even be saying that!
I started supporting McLaren when Ron Dennis was in charge. I am not sure that he would fit in to the modern F1. By that, I mean I do not know if the job he had then, actually exists now. I don't see Toto running Mercedes like Ron ran McLaren. F1 has changed over the past few years. Mercedes now employ over 1,000 staff to maintain two racing cars. When Ron ran McLaren, that was unthinkable. I am not sure that a team now could be run like it was then. Plus, unless I have it wrong, my understanding is that engine manufacturers can no longer put the new faster bits on their own engines first. My understanding is that if something is new and better, then they have to provide to customers also.
Whilst the Renault move was sideways in terms of power etc, what it did do was force the team to look long and hard at it self. Not all the problems were Honda. Some, God forbid, were closer to home. Initially I was wary of Zac Brown........what on earth does an American know about F1??? Well, he has done a great job thus far. Of course the next step is the most difficult. But, so far, so good. Maybe it highlights that having huge sums of money do not stop bad decisions being made.
Factor in the natural ebbs and flows of sport and things can take time to get right. With a championship winning engine, some new sponsors and a race winning driver, the prospects, on paper at least, look great. And as a McLaren fan, it pleases me immensely to even be saying that!
It's a combination of factors.
2012-2013, I agree was a disastrous decision to change philosophy. In addition, much as it may rile some, losing Hamilton was a big factor. Perez, then Magnussen, just weren't up to that level at the time.
The Honda thing:
Ron was right in seeing that they'd never be champions as a customer, but Honda badly let them down. I think it simplistic to view the relationship breaking up just as it came good and a 'realisation' that it wasn't t just he PU that was at fault.
Let's not forget that the 2015 Honda engine was crap and it didn't get much better in following years.
I think that Zak Brown could see the Honda investment coming good but in 2018 they couldn't take a risk of another year without progress. A lot had been said by both parties, the relationship had soured and I think that as companies, they just weren't compatible.
There then follows a long term plan - re-structure technical staff, sort drivers, etc. I think Brown is good at the helm but he saw a 7-10 year horizon:
Phase 1 - Renault - 2018-2020
Phase 2 - Mercedes - 2021-2024?
Phase 3 - ??? 2025 onwards
Phase 3 is the only shot they'll probably have at the title, with new engine regs. He will know that this is when they need a works partnership if they're to succeed.
So, it's correct that it's a lot of money to spend nine years getting back to where you started. However, the move to Honda fundamentally caused this and without a plethora of manufacturers to turn to, they have had little choice in PU backer.
2012-2013, I agree was a disastrous decision to change philosophy. In addition, much as it may rile some, losing Hamilton was a big factor. Perez, then Magnussen, just weren't up to that level at the time.
The Honda thing:
Ron was right in seeing that they'd never be champions as a customer, but Honda badly let them down. I think it simplistic to view the relationship breaking up just as it came good and a 'realisation' that it wasn't t just he PU that was at fault.
Let's not forget that the 2015 Honda engine was crap and it didn't get much better in following years.
I think that Zak Brown could see the Honda investment coming good but in 2018 they couldn't take a risk of another year without progress. A lot had been said by both parties, the relationship had soured and I think that as companies, they just weren't compatible.
There then follows a long term plan - re-structure technical staff, sort drivers, etc. I think Brown is good at the helm but he saw a 7-10 year horizon:
Phase 1 - Renault - 2018-2020
Phase 2 - Mercedes - 2021-2024?
Phase 3 - ??? 2025 onwards
Phase 3 is the only shot they'll probably have at the title, with new engine regs. He will know that this is when they need a works partnership if they're to succeed.
So, it's correct that it's a lot of money to spend nine years getting back to where you started. However, the move to Honda fundamentally caused this and without a plethora of manufacturers to turn to, they have had little choice in PU backer.
yoshisdad said:
As a McLaren fan since 1988, I think they still have ground to make up on the top two constructors. I think this year, that third in the constructors championship will be a good result for them. This will, hopefully make them attractive to sponsors plus will keep good prize money from FIA rolling in. They might win a race this year but I think that will only happen because of misfortune to the leading cars.
I started supporting McLaren when Ron Dennis was in charge. I am not sure that he would fit in to the modern F1. By that, I mean I do not know if the job he had then, actually exists now. I don't see Toto running Mercedes like Ron ran McLaren. F1 has changed over the past few years. Mercedes now employ over 1,000 staff to maintain two racing cars. When Ron ran McLaren, that was unthinkable. I am not sure that a team now could be run like it was then. Plus, unless I have it wrong, my understanding is that engine manufacturers can no longer put the new faster bits on their own engines first. My understanding is that if something is new and better, then they have to provide to customers also.
Whilst the Renault move was sideways in terms of power etc, what it did do was force the team to look long and hard at it self. Not all the problems were Honda. Some, God forbid, were closer to home. Initially I was wary of Zac Brown........what on earth does an American know about F1??? Well, he has done a great job thus far. Of course the next step is the most difficult. But, so far, so good. Maybe it highlights that having huge sums of money do not stop bad decisions being made.
Factor in the natural ebbs and flows of sport and things can take time to get right. With a championship winning engine, some new sponsors and a race winning driver, the prospects, on paper at least, look great. And as a McLaren fan, it pleases me immensely to even be saying that!
I feel your pain. I’ve been a fan of McL since the start of MP4. The decade when they battled with Williams sticks in my mind. To have a team at the top for a long period ruins the sport and I feel certain that this was why Dennis decided that it was time to take a rest, you know, to give others a chance.I started supporting McLaren when Ron Dennis was in charge. I am not sure that he would fit in to the modern F1. By that, I mean I do not know if the job he had then, actually exists now. I don't see Toto running Mercedes like Ron ran McLaren. F1 has changed over the past few years. Mercedes now employ over 1,000 staff to maintain two racing cars. When Ron ran McLaren, that was unthinkable. I am not sure that a team now could be run like it was then. Plus, unless I have it wrong, my understanding is that engine manufacturers can no longer put the new faster bits on their own engines first. My understanding is that if something is new and better, then they have to provide to customers also.
Whilst the Renault move was sideways in terms of power etc, what it did do was force the team to look long and hard at it self. Not all the problems were Honda. Some, God forbid, were closer to home. Initially I was wary of Zac Brown........what on earth does an American know about F1??? Well, he has done a great job thus far. Of course the next step is the most difficult. But, so far, so good. Maybe it highlights that having huge sums of money do not stop bad decisions being made.
Factor in the natural ebbs and flows of sport and things can take time to get right. With a championship winning engine, some new sponsors and a race winning driver, the prospects, on paper at least, look great. And as a McLaren fan, it pleases me immensely to even be saying that!
I very nearly gave up on the sport after their dreadful treatment by that bloke who preceded Todt. It wasn’t just the unjust, and unjustifiable, fine, but that said, Dennis outlasted him.
I spoke to Dennis at the Goodwood Festival of Speed. He seemed very genuine, chatty and friendly.
Is McL back? It’s had a couple of good seasons, leading the race on merit last time, and, notably, with the Renault engine, so perhaps I’d not follow the received wisdom that it was a sideways move at best. They’ve come on since they went French.
I’m not so sure that the Merc engine will be the solution to all their problems. I think we’ll have to wait. Mind you, it makes a very pleasant change, this anticipation of mixing it with the leaders. Possibly.
Muzzer79 said:
It's a combination of factors.
2012-2013, I agree was a disastrous decision to change philosophy. In addition, much as it may rile some, losing Hamilton was a big factor. Perez, then Magnussen, just weren't up to that level at the time.
The Honda thing:
Ron was right in seeing that they'd never be champions as a customer, but Honda badly let them down. I think it simplistic to view the relationship breaking up just as it came good and a 'realisation' that it wasn't t just he PU that was at fault.
Let's not forget that the 2015 Honda engine was crap and it didn't get much better in following years.
I think that Zak Brown could see the Honda investment coming good but in 2018 they couldn't take a risk of another year without progress. A lot had been said by both parties, the relationship had soured and I think that as companies, they just weren't compatible.
There then follows a long term plan - re-structure technical staff, sort drivers, etc. I think Brown is good at the helm but he saw a 7-10 year horizon:
Phase 1 - Renault - 2018-2020
Phase 2 - Mercedes - 2021-2024?
Phase 3 - ??? 2025 onwards
Phase 3 is the only shot they'll probably have at the title, with new engine regs. He will know that this is when they need a works partnership if they're to succeed.
So, it's correct that it's a lot of money to spend nine years getting back to where you started. However, the move to Honda fundamentally caused this and without a plethora of manufacturers to turn to, they have had little choice in PU backer.
Agree - they can't beat Merc F1 with a Merc PU, it's always going to be at it's best in the Merc car it was designed for.. until at least 2025 when the PU game might change a little... That's more a problem the sport has with PU complexity and cost in general rather than a McLaren issue of course.2012-2013, I agree was a disastrous decision to change philosophy. In addition, much as it may rile some, losing Hamilton was a big factor. Perez, then Magnussen, just weren't up to that level at the time.
The Honda thing:
Ron was right in seeing that they'd never be champions as a customer, but Honda badly let them down. I think it simplistic to view the relationship breaking up just as it came good and a 'realisation' that it wasn't t just he PU that was at fault.
Let's not forget that the 2015 Honda engine was crap and it didn't get much better in following years.
I think that Zak Brown could see the Honda investment coming good but in 2018 they couldn't take a risk of another year without progress. A lot had been said by both parties, the relationship had soured and I think that as companies, they just weren't compatible.
There then follows a long term plan - re-structure technical staff, sort drivers, etc. I think Brown is good at the helm but he saw a 7-10 year horizon:
Phase 1 - Renault - 2018-2020
Phase 2 - Mercedes - 2021-2024?
Phase 3 - ??? 2025 onwards
Phase 3 is the only shot they'll probably have at the title, with new engine regs. He will know that this is when they need a works partnership if they're to succeed.
So, it's correct that it's a lot of money to spend nine years getting back to where you started. However, the move to Honda fundamentally caused this and without a plethora of manufacturers to turn to, they have had little choice in PU backer.
But they can seek to come 3rd, maybe even 2nd. That's also an ambitious target but at least it's conceivable that it 'could' happen. It's a target to aim for at least - albeit more realistically they will hopefully mix it up at the top at some GP's and the rest of the time should be ahead of the rest of the midfield pack. Which I would argue is good enough on the basis it's about as much as we can expect from any team that is a PU customer to another team right now.
It's frustrating we're stuck with these crazy complex and expensive hybrid units until 2025!! There is no chance for teams like McLaren to develop their own and no hope of any new PU suppliers entering the sport given the cost and unknown future spec etc.
I think McLaren are now in a very good place. Great team, great drivers, great engine.
So now it really does comes back to Ron’s 2014 observation. A customer team will never win the WCC, especially when the Works team are pretty dammed good in all other aspects of their performance.
I don't think that they can actually beat Red Bull, it has to be their goal, but coming 3rd these days is very impressive.
So now it really does comes back to Ron’s 2014 observation. A customer team will never win the WCC, especially when the Works team are pretty dammed good in all other aspects of their performance.
I don't think that they can actually beat Red Bull, it has to be their goal, but coming 3rd these days is very impressive.
rdjohn said:
I don't think that they can actually beat Red Bull, it has to be their goal, but coming 3rd these days is very impressive.
I think maintaining performance well enough to secure their revenues for these remaining years of the current PU spec is itself something to be happy about. It will keep McLaren in good shape and help them retain good talent for the future - a future where hopefully there will be new avenues to explore regards PU development/supply partnerships.
This year now feels like they've gone right back to 96/97 where they've got a likely top 6/top 8 car and it's the first year with Mercedes. And like 96/97 it looks like it will be the start of a very promising long term driver lineup. Let's hope the 22 reg change results in the 98 level jump in performance.
LordGrover said:
Not sure how long-term Danny Ricciardo will be, he's 32 this season and still trying to find the seat to prove his ability/potential. Or not.
Well, if McLaren are indeed to emerge this season as the best of the rest, right behind the top teams... Then where else would he go?Mercedes have George ready to go, if either current driver leaves - or if Bottas is asked to leave once Lewis takes the all important 8th title...
Red Bull - not so long as they still have and favour Max.
Ferrari - maybe, although if Sainz does as well as suspected then those seats could be safely filled for years.
Anything can happen of course, and things often happen quickly in F1. But as it stands right now, I can't see any seats Mercedes or Ferrari opening up for him anytime soon.
I think for McLaren the big challenge in their immediate future is to nail the 2022 regs and come out with an above average adaption to the new changes. It's great that they have made so much progress recently, and fingers crossed this season is a further cementing of their prowess. But they have to maintain or grow that as the sport transits to the new regs. It's a dangerous time/an opportunity for any team to find itself moving up or down the order depending on how good a fist they make of it.
LordGrover said:
Not sure how long-term Danny Ricciardo will be, he's 32 this season and still trying to find the seat to prove his ability/potential. Or not.
Agree with above that he has limited other options.Ferrari and Mercedes have other options ahead of him
He hasn't burned his bridges at Renault and Red Bull but they are very much ex-wives, even if it was an amicable divorce.
Aston Martin are the only other avenue that has potential, but at present that's a sidestep from McLaren, which seems his last roll of the big dice to me.
Ref the comments about how the Mercedes PU is designed for the Mercedes- given that we have 3 years of the same engine, McLaren should be able to build there car round it. Mercedes are at the same disadvantage in that they won’t be able to change the engine should they want to make it suit a new design. This will hopefully negate the disadvantage of being a customer up against a works team.
Nampahc Niloc said:
Ref the comments about how the Mercedes PU is designed for the Mercedes- given that we have 3 years of the same engine, McLaren should be able to build there car round it. Mercedes are at the same disadvantage in that they won’t be able to change the engine should they want to make it suit a new design. This will hopefully negate the disadvantage of being a customer up against a works team.
It will negate it to a significant degree compared to more normal seasons with constant development allowed. That's a good point.However, the car being a 'perfect' match for the engine isn't the only benefit that Merc have over their customers. And apart from anything else, even with the cost caps Mercedes still have overall higher revenue than McLaren, that will make a difference in terms of car development potential.
Also consider that Mercedes were pumping serious money in 2021 (now 22) regs change R&D ahead of time, before there were any cost caps. The spec wasn't locked down at that point but I'm sure they knew enough of how it was shaping up to do some very worthwhile R&D work. During the same period, McLaren did not have the same level of funds or resource in general.
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