What if there were no points
Discussion
Random thought of the day, if there were no points how much would it affect the championship.
Well you need some basic way of scoring, easiest way in my head was to have finishing place as "points" and total them up
P1 - 1 point
P2 - 2 points
...
...
DNS / DNF - 20 points (of whatever last place would be)
I stuck the 2020 results into excel and did some jigging, it makes some interesting changes, doesn't really tell us anything though.
Pos Driver Points Places
1 Lewis Hamilton 347 47
2 Valtteri Bottas 203 87
3 Daniel Ricciardo 119 121
4 Max Verstappen 214 128
5 Sergio Pérez 125 131
6 Alexander Albon 105 140
7 Lando Norris 97 140
8 Carlos Sainz Jr. 105 149
9 Charles Leclerc 98 158
10 Pierre Gasly 75 168
11 Esteban Ocon 62 179
12 Daniil Kvyat 32 179
13 Sebastian Vettel 33 182
14 Lance Stroll 75 187
15 Kimi Räikkönen 4 216
16 Antonio Giovinazzi 4 238
17 George Russell 3 255
18 Romain Grosjean 2 256
19 Nicholas Latifi 0 259
20 Kevin Magnussen 1 264
21 Nico Hülkenberg 10 295
Well you need some basic way of scoring, easiest way in my head was to have finishing place as "points" and total them up
P1 - 1 point
P2 - 2 points
...
...
DNS / DNF - 20 points (of whatever last place would be)
I stuck the 2020 results into excel and did some jigging, it makes some interesting changes, doesn't really tell us anything though.
Pos Driver Points Places
1 Lewis Hamilton 347 47
2 Valtteri Bottas 203 87
3 Daniel Ricciardo 119 121
4 Max Verstappen 214 128
5 Sergio Pérez 125 131
6 Alexander Albon 105 140
7 Lando Norris 97 140
8 Carlos Sainz Jr. 105 149
9 Charles Leclerc 98 158
10 Pierre Gasly 75 168
11 Esteban Ocon 62 179
12 Daniil Kvyat 32 179
13 Sebastian Vettel 33 182
14 Lance Stroll 75 187
15 Kimi Räikkönen 4 216
16 Antonio Giovinazzi 4 238
17 George Russell 3 255
18 Romain Grosjean 2 256
19 Nicholas Latifi 0 259
20 Kevin Magnussen 1 264
21 Nico Hülkenberg 10 295
GAjon said:
I’ve been advocating the points matching finishing positions and the driver with the least points wins for a long time.
The way I see it with this method every position is worth racing for.
Positives and negatives, any classified finish would be worth repairing car for rather than a DNF so you could get cars being repaired in the pits if the fix is simple. Flip side is you don't want cars limping round damaged, way off the pace and getting in the way just to get to 90% race distance covered.The way I see it with this method every position is worth racing for.
edit:
make every place more valuable and encourages racing below the top 10, maybe we'd see less pay drivers prone to wrecking the race on lap 1
LucyP said:
But then every race will have 6 safety car periods because of the 2 back markers crashing into each other, fighting over 20th place.
Definitely a reason to keep the current system then, I mean who wants cars overtaking each driver because there's a reason to want to finish 19th rather than 20th? You could use the football method https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unofficial_Football_...
Whoever beats the last race winner or champion takes that mantle until they themselves are beaten.
Anyone want to work it out for F1 from the start?
Whoever beats the last race winner or champion takes that mantle until they themselves are beaten.
Anyone want to work it out for F1 from the start?
robuk said:
You could use the football method https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unofficial_Football_...
Whoever beats the last race winner or champion takes that mantle until they themselves are beaten.
Anyone want to work it out for F1 from the start?
Easy- Hamilton. Because he won the last race.Whoever beats the last race winner or champion takes that mantle until they themselves are beaten.
Anyone want to work it out for F1 from the start?
All you're doing is swapping high points for low points. Like watching Pointless instead of Family Fortunes.
Between 2003 and 2009 inclusive we had the most similar scoring system with the following points being awarded for the first 8 positions:
10,8,6,5,4,3,2,1. But people didn't like it because they felt it reduced the incentive for 2nd to try and pass 1st.
If you wanted to remove points you could run it on aggregate time, like the Tour De France. This would give the leader an incentive to win by the biggest margin possible. Lapped drivers or DNFs would lose the time equivalent to one lap.
Between 2003 and 2009 inclusive we had the most similar scoring system with the following points being awarded for the first 8 positions:
10,8,6,5,4,3,2,1. But people didn't like it because they felt it reduced the incentive for 2nd to try and pass 1st.
If you wanted to remove points you could run it on aggregate time, like the Tour De France. This would give the leader an incentive to win by the biggest margin possible. Lapped drivers or DNFs would lose the time equivalent to one lap.
Mr_Thyroid said:
All you're doing is swapping high points for low points. Like watching Pointless instead of Family Fortunes.
Not quite, because currently points are not handed out for places 11-20 and the distribution of points heavily favours the top 5 finishers. Pretty obviously if we currently had 20 points for the winner, 19 for 2nd, 18 for 3rd and so on down to 1 point for 20th - you’d be correct.Here's how I'd do it:
1 - scrap the points completely.
2 - WDC is the driver who has won most races. Second place the next most races, etc.
3 - where there is a tie for race wins, count back to second places, if these tie, count back to third and so on.
I did actually work out how this would have changed the results up to about 1995, but now can't find the piece of paper so someone will have to do it all over again. I remember Jim Clark gained a couple of championships, as did Nigel Mansell. I believe Senna lost one or two, but there weren't as many changes as you might think
1 - scrap the points completely.
2 - WDC is the driver who has won most races. Second place the next most races, etc.
3 - where there is a tie for race wins, count back to second places, if these tie, count back to third and so on.
I did actually work out how this would have changed the results up to about 1995, but now can't find the piece of paper so someone will have to do it all over again. I remember Jim Clark gained a couple of championships, as did Nigel Mansell. I believe Senna lost one or two, but there weren't as many changes as you might think
Personally i don’t think this is the best way of doing it but i have been after an every finisher gets points system for a while.
Would make it so much easier to support a team at the back of the pack if you could see easily why they had come 9th and not 10th whereas now 9th and 10th could both be on 0 points.
Would make it so much easier to support a team at the back of the pack if you could see easily why they had come 9th and not 10th whereas now 9th and 10th could both be on 0 points.
HighwayToHull said:
Here's how I'd do it:
1 - scrap the points completely.
2 - WDC is the driver who has won most races. Second place the next most races, etc.
3 - where there is a tie for race wins, count back to second places, if these tie, count back to third and so on.
I did actually work out how this would have changed the results up to about 1995, but now can't find the piece of paper so someone will have to do it all over again. I remember Jim Clark gained a couple of championships, as did Nigel Mansell. I believe Senna lost one or two, but there weren't as many changes as you might think
Hamilton would lose 20081 - scrap the points completely.
2 - WDC is the driver who has won most races. Second place the next most races, etc.
3 - where there is a tie for race wins, count back to second places, if these tie, count back to third and so on.
I did actually work out how this would have changed the results up to about 1995, but now can't find the piece of paper so someone will have to do it all over again. I remember Jim Clark gained a couple of championships, as did Nigel Mansell. I believe Senna lost one or two, but there weren't as many changes as you might think
HighwayToHull said:
Here's how I'd do it:
1 - scrap the points completely.
2 - WDC is the driver who has won most races. Second place the next most races, etc.
3 - where there is a tie for race wins, count back to second places, if these tie, count back to third and so on.
I did actually work out how this would have changed the results up to about 1995, but now can't find the piece of paper so someone will have to do it all over again. I remember Jim Clark gained a couple of championships, as did Nigel Mansell. I believe Senna lost one or two, but there weren't as many changes as you might think
Prost would lose 1989 to Senna I think. Senna may lose 1991 to Mansell?1 - scrap the points completely.
2 - WDC is the driver who has won most races. Second place the next most races, etc.
3 - where there is a tie for race wins, count back to second places, if these tie, count back to third and so on.
I did actually work out how this would have changed the results up to about 1995, but now can't find the piece of paper so someone will have to do it all over again. I remember Jim Clark gained a couple of championships, as did Nigel Mansell. I believe Senna lost one or two, but there weren't as many changes as you might think
Senna would keep 1988 (8 wins to 7 over Prost) and in 1990 I think he won more than Prost too.
On the topic of the no points system, looking at the 2020 results it seems to really punish DNFs, which will not always be the driver's or team's fault. If it's a collision that takes out say three cars, they all get the maximum penalty even if two of the three drivers were innocent victims of some else's mistake (think Grosjean at Spa when he took out Alonso, Hamilton, himself and I think one other car).
To me, you could achieve the same thing slightly simpler just by giving points that are a reversal of finishing position, as described above. So, winner gets 20 points, last place gets 1 point. DNF could either have 0 points or you just dish out points to every driver depending on how far they got.... so in that three car pileup, the wreck that ended up further down the track than the other two gets more points
The outcome would be about the same but I think the points would be a bit simpler to follow.
robuk said:
You could use the football method https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unofficial_Football_...
Whoever beats the last race winner or champion takes that mantle until they themselves are beaten.
Anyone want to work it out for F1 from the start?
I don't think this would work for Formula 1. In Football and Boxing, two people or teams compete against eachother each time, so for example, each time there's a round of matches, only one team is facing the current title holders and has an opportunity to take the title.Whoever beats the last race winner or champion takes that mantle until they themselves are beaten.
Anyone want to work it out for F1 from the start?
In Formula 1, all the drivers are racing against eachother every time, so it seems to me the end result would simply be equal to the overall race winners table.
E.g. Hamilton won the last race, giving him a title and making him the current holder. If he finishes only 5th this weekend, which of the four drivers who finish ahead of him get the title? Most likely it's the race winner, let's say that's Max, he's the new title holder, so his number of titles goes up by 1 as does his number of race wins. Next race, Max wins again. According to the UFWC rules he gets another title to go with another win.
So, for the UF1WC results, simply look at the all time race winners list.
If you do it by world championships instead, again the result stays the same because all the contestants compete against eachother in every event.
robuk said:
You could use the football method https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unofficial_Football_...
Whoever beats the last race winner or champion takes that mantle until they themselves are beaten.
Anyone want to work it out for F1 from the start?
How would that even work for a sport with 20 competitors?Whoever beats the last race winner or champion takes that mantle until they themselves are beaten.
Anyone want to work it out for F1 from the start?
HighwayToHull said:
Here's how I'd do it:
1 - scrap the points completely.
2 - WDC is the driver who has won most races. Second place the next most races, etc.
3 - where there is a tie for race wins, count back to second places, if these tie, count back to third and so on.
I did actually work out how this would have changed the results up to about 1995, but now can't find the piece of paper so someone will have to do it all over again. I remember Jim Clark gained a couple of championships, as did Nigel Mansell. I believe Senna lost one or two, but there weren't as many changes as you might think
I ran an F1 Fantasy League at work, with 250 taking part at one time before the 'stop everyone having fun' department discovered it. 1 - scrap the points completely.
2 - WDC is the driver who has won most races. Second place the next most races, etc.
3 - where there is a tie for race wins, count back to second places, if these tie, count back to third and so on.
I did actually work out how this would have changed the results up to about 1995, but now can't find the piece of paper so someone will have to do it all over again. I remember Jim Clark gained a couple of championships, as did Nigel Mansell. I believe Senna lost one or two, but there weren't as many changes as you might think
If there were 20 cars on the grid (there were more, but for simplicity's sake) the winner would get 20 points down to 1, done by lap, so if two cars collided, but one car made it across the finish line, normally in the pits, then they went up one place.
On top of that, 10 for first on the grid, down to . . . work it out. Then a point for every position over the one you started with. Start at the back and come 10th = 10 points. Cunningly, they dropped a point for the reverse. If the pole position driver crashed on the first lap, then -20 +10. A bad day.
The odd thing was that, despite the variables - there was also 5 points for driver of the day as nominated by my group of friends, on a majority basis as there was no way they'd ever agree - the places at the end of the year largely conformed to the WDC and WCC (there were points for cars as well). There were other variables.
I ran it on an Excell worksheet and as the seasons went by I added variables and it all got rather complex.
There were arguments as to whether a car actually started - I forget the details - and my insistance that the parade lap was part of the race gave me a fair bit of grief. There was one race where the start line went through the pitlane around half way through, and two cars that collided made it to the pits but were too damaged to continue. After that bit of grief, (one point remember) I said that I'd go by the results as published by Autosport. Provisional results were a pain. A change was easy enough to cope with until it cost a competitor points.
I didn't take part.
Someone complained that I was syphoning money. Out of the total of the final season, £1245 - the previous winner got a free go - I divided the pot into six, with three parts going to the winner, two to second and one for bronze. A sixth was then £205, meaning first prize was £615, second £410 and the third £205. The second placed player wanted to know where the remaining £20 was. The accounts were published on the intranet website so when I was taken off the streets by the Gestapo, I sent them a link, at that time I didn't know what the specific complaint was. One they started drilling my teeth, I showed them the rules of the game, which pointed out that there would be a prize for the two last places for WDC and WCC, £10 and £5, that year they being the same person.
I was banned because there might be other complaints in the future. Over a £thousand was a bit much, I agreed, and after all the moans, groans, and accusation I was glad to be rid of it.
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