Genetics or opportunity?
Discussion
With Mick Schumacher joining Max Verstappen on the grid in F1 he is amongst a number of son’s of famous F1 drivers.
Do you think there is a genetic factor in this or is it just purely down to the fact that they have been around motor racing all their lives and have had the money and opportunity to start racing young and attract sponsorship?
Its a bit of both isn't it.
I'd wager that out there somewhere is a world class driver that could compete at the top level, only they don't have £££ to get in to a race car/series.
On the flip side there are people that have got in to racing, purely because they were able to pay the bills. As it turns out some of them aren't/weren't so bad, some were bloody awful.
Max for example had no choice, he was always going to be a racing driver even before he was born, Jos was sure of that. Others had the opportunity but never really made their mark as drivers - Mansell boys, Paul Stewart come to mind, Josh Hill too who got up to F3 steadily and decided to quit to go play in a band. On the flip side Alex Brundle moved up through the ranks and is an accomplished endurance driver, not bad in the commentary box either! Would he have found it so easy scratching around for drives without connections/budget ? probably not.
I'd wager that out there somewhere is a world class driver that could compete at the top level, only they don't have £££ to get in to a race car/series.
On the flip side there are people that have got in to racing, purely because they were able to pay the bills. As it turns out some of them aren't/weren't so bad, some were bloody awful.
Max for example had no choice, he was always going to be a racing driver even before he was born, Jos was sure of that. Others had the opportunity but never really made their mark as drivers - Mansell boys, Paul Stewart come to mind, Josh Hill too who got up to F3 steadily and decided to quit to go play in a band. On the flip side Alex Brundle moved up through the ranks and is an accomplished endurance driver, not bad in the commentary box either! Would he have found it so easy scratching around for drives without connections/budget ? probably not.
n3il123 said:
Kawasicki said:
Exige77 said:
Kawasicki said:
99.9999% opportunity. A friend of mine was a race engineer for a kids karting team. Budget around 150k a year, for an 11 year old.
But if you haven’t got the talent, you won’t last long.You need to have the talent, but you also need a boat load of opportunity.
Stroll, for instance, has some talent and is able to do well on the right day, but if he didn't have billions in the bank he'd not be in Formula 1. You can have all the money in the world and still have zero talent in which case you'd still find it hard to get a superlicence.
Mazepin looks like he has just enough ability to make it, but cash has been carrying him as far as he's got, and I'd wager it's cost that family a damn slight more than what the Hamiltons needed with Lewis.
Stroll, for instance, has some talent and is able to do well on the right day, but if he didn't have billions in the bank he'd not be in Formula 1. You can have all the money in the world and still have zero talent in which case you'd still find it hard to get a superlicence.
Mazepin looks like he has just enough ability to make it, but cash has been carrying him as far as he's got, and I'd wager it's cost that family a damn slight more than what the Hamiltons needed with Lewis.
Stroll is the perfect example actually fomb, though not for what many people think. That guy is a thoroughly good driver, he's actually head and shoulders above some F1 drivers in the wet.
However, he's in no way anything special in all departments and as an F1 driver, who to be successful needs to be much, much more than just great in the wet he's lacking.
He's also blatantly only there because his family had such huge resources to get him there.
Put Stroll in a lower category and I imagine he'd excel, as many other F1 also-rans have at places like Le Mans, Indycar etc
So opportunity got him there and natural talent, should really keep him there at least a few years (even if his Dad didn't run the team IMHO).
What is most interesting of course, is when you get the supernatural-talent combined with opportunity and something special comes along, like a Max, or a Lewis etc.
It's the same rule of thumb with Champions. The best drivers routinely get themselves in the best cars and glory awaits. But occasionally you get an Alesi, a post 2006 Alonso etc who can't catch a break.
However, he's in no way anything special in all departments and as an F1 driver, who to be successful needs to be much, much more than just great in the wet he's lacking.
He's also blatantly only there because his family had such huge resources to get him there.
Put Stroll in a lower category and I imagine he'd excel, as many other F1 also-rans have at places like Le Mans, Indycar etc
So opportunity got him there and natural talent, should really keep him there at least a few years (even if his Dad didn't run the team IMHO).
What is most interesting of course, is when you get the supernatural-talent combined with opportunity and something special comes along, like a Max, or a Lewis etc.
It's the same rule of thumb with Champions. The best drivers routinely get themselves in the best cars and glory awaits. But occasionally you get an Alesi, a post 2006 Alonso etc who can't catch a break.
PH User said:
n3il123 said:
Kawasicki said:
Exige77 said:
Kawasicki said:
99.9999% opportunity. A friend of mine was a race engineer for a kids karting team. Budget around 150k a year, for an 11 year old.
But if you haven’t got the talent, you won’t last long.Stroll has done better than many expected. Money buys him an opportunity. If he fails miserably, he’ll be gone. While he’s beating a 4 times WDC, he’ll continue.
All opportunity.
Have a read of Matthew Syed’s brilliant book “Bounce”. Syed represented GB at table tennis, he acknowledges himself this is because he lived in a village near the GB coach when he was younger and a chance conversation between his parents and the coach led him to take up the sport, Syed also had a brother he could play table tennis against on a daily basis...
The top athletes have completed more hours of practice than their lower skilled peers and practice develops an activity-specific knowledge base that leads to activity-specific performance improvements. Usually this intensive practice is started at a early age, think of Venus and Serena Williams or Tiger Woods, the early, intense start makes them better than their peers at the same age when they start to compete.
So Max is there because his dad started him in karts from 4 years old and he grew up surrounded by the sport so he could practice but If you don’t exploit any of that practice however, you get found out like Piquet Jr ....
Have a read of Matthew Syed’s brilliant book “Bounce”. Syed represented GB at table tennis, he acknowledges himself this is because he lived in a village near the GB coach when he was younger and a chance conversation between his parents and the coach led him to take up the sport, Syed also had a brother he could play table tennis against on a daily basis...
The top athletes have completed more hours of practice than their lower skilled peers and practice develops an activity-specific knowledge base that leads to activity-specific performance improvements. Usually this intensive practice is started at a early age, think of Venus and Serena Williams or Tiger Woods, the early, intense start makes them better than their peers at the same age when they start to compete.
So Max is there because his dad started him in karts from 4 years old and he grew up surrounded by the sport so he could practice but If you don’t exploit any of that practice however, you get found out like Piquet Jr ....
pablo said:
All opportunity.
Have a read of Matthew Syed’s brilliant book “Bounce”. Syed represented GB at table tennis, he acknowledges himself this is because he lived in a village near the GB coach when he was younger and a chance conversation between his parents and the coach led him to take up the sport, Syed also had a brother he could play table tennis against on a daily basis...
The top athletes have completed more hours of practice than their lower skilled peers and practice develops an activity-specific knowledge base that leads to activity-specific performance improvements. Usually this intensive practice is started at a early age, think of Venus and Serena Williams or Tiger Woods, the early, intense start makes them better than their peers at the same age when they start to compete.
So Max is there because his dad started him in karts from 4 years old and he grew up surrounded by the sport so he could practice but If you don’t exploit any of that practice however, you get found out like Piquet Jr ....
Matthew came and talked about instututionalisation vs innovation at a work do a few years back and he talked about that point above also. Great evening!Have a read of Matthew Syed’s brilliant book “Bounce”. Syed represented GB at table tennis, he acknowledges himself this is because he lived in a village near the GB coach when he was younger and a chance conversation between his parents and the coach led him to take up the sport, Syed also had a brother he could play table tennis against on a daily basis...
The top athletes have completed more hours of practice than their lower skilled peers and practice develops an activity-specific knowledge base that leads to activity-specific performance improvements. Usually this intensive practice is started at a early age, think of Venus and Serena Williams or Tiger Woods, the early, intense start makes them better than their peers at the same age when they start to compete.
So Max is there because his dad started him in karts from 4 years old and he grew up surrounded by the sport so he could practice but If you don’t exploit any of that practice however, you get found out like Piquet Jr ....
I agree it is all opportunity with a very thin veneer of talent. No opportunity no chance to shine. You may as well swap the word f1 with polo, tis curious only the super rich have the time and money to get good at it.
It is a truth universally acknowledged that because Lance Stroll was unlucky enough to have a rich dad he will never be rated highly , regardless of his achievements on track.
It is another such truth that the chippy , sweary , working class hero and impoverished underdog Tommy Byrne will always be mourned by some as the great lost talent of F1 . This on the basis of a good F3 record (just like Dave Walker , Jan Magnussen and others who failed at the final hurdle of F1 ) , a decent test and bugger all else .
But undoubtedly there are drivers whose talent is never exploited- comfortably the most sublime car control I have seen in the last decade came from somebody who barely even registered on the motorsport radar .
It is another such truth that the chippy , sweary , working class hero and impoverished underdog Tommy Byrne will always be mourned by some as the great lost talent of F1 . This on the basis of a good F3 record (just like Dave Walker , Jan Magnussen and others who failed at the final hurdle of F1 ) , a decent test and bugger all else .
But undoubtedly there are drivers whose talent is never exploited- comfortably the most sublime car control I have seen in the last decade came from somebody who barely even registered on the motorsport radar .
coppice said:
It is a truth universally acknowledged that because Lance Stroll was unlucky enough to have a rich dad he will never be rated highly , regardless of his achievements on track.
It is another such truth that the chippy , sweary , working class hero and impoverished underdog Tommy Byrne will always be mourned by some as the great lost talent of F1 . This on the basis of a good F3 record (just like Dave Walker , Jan Magnussen and others who failed at the final hurdle of F1 ) , a decent test and bugger all else .
But undoubtedly there are drivers whose talent is never exploited- comfortably the most sublime car control I have seen in the last decade came from somebody who barely even registered on the motorsport radar .
I worked in tyre testing. A few drivers were pretty damn good, some weren't. It pissed off a few bosses when the company hired an ex F1 "superstar" for a press event, only for him to lap the track slower than one of the company's own test drivers who never even competed in motorsport. His direct boss told him to lap slower, to which he replied "no", in a very drawl french accent. How I laughed.It is another such truth that the chippy , sweary , working class hero and impoverished underdog Tommy Byrne will always be mourned by some as the great lost talent of F1 . This on the basis of a good F3 record (just like Dave Walker , Jan Magnussen and others who failed at the final hurdle of F1 ) , a decent test and bugger all else .
But undoubtedly there are drivers whose talent is never exploited- comfortably the most sublime car control I have seen in the last decade came from somebody who barely even registered on the motorsport radar .
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