1st time at the ring. There are no ... words !!!

[lou556]

Morning people,
Just got back from a trip to the ring yesterday evening with my friends. My 1st time there and it was there 4th. We stayed at the Hotel an der Nordschleife which overlooks the Breidscheid Bridge section of The 'Ring. We regularly travelled the mountain roads, undertook many photo shoots, had a go-kart session, attacked the Ring and the Half+Full GP circuit. I found the whole area and the experience to be out of this world and again words can not describe who much I enjoyed it. I shall defiantly be making the trip back out there next year.
However not all is well!! I am now in the situation were I must decide which route to go down car wise. I am looking to build a track/fast road car over the next year for my return to the ring and also many other track days etc... Im looking to create a fairly focused car a CSL/RS of sorts so the car will have no aircon, rear interior, semi slick tyres, bracing..... I have a few firm favourites but after experiencing many different types of car over the last few days I really am torn !! I have the following ideas floating around in my head

E36 328I Saloon/Coupe
Accord Type R
306 GTI6
Golf GTI Mk2
Clio 172
Mazda MX5 - (so worried about the straight line performance)
( I am also 6'4" so would a lower seat sub frame solve this issue?)

As you will note all cars are N/A as I am looking for ultimate reliability and have all met critical acclaim in the motoring world in the past.

Which ever base I choose will be purchased based on mechanical condition and not appearance. Again I shall be looking to create a CSL/RS type car so most creature comforts removed but not all. I will be looking for a great response from the engine/drive-train and immediate response from the chassis.

I shall be looking to spend up to around £7-8k including the initial purchase of the car.

So whilst this post is turning into a bit of a what car it really is more of a share your experiences and knowledge and point me in the right direction.

Thanks PHers

Regards

Lewis

[Jw Vw]

An E36 328I or M3 would make a cracking track slag.

[lou556]

it must be a sign I was already leaning towards the 328i need more feedback though how have you guys got on with these cars in your ownership? If anyone has any links to any great track car builds it will be much appreciated.

[T33JOB]

Clio 182 cup, not a 182 with cup packs, but the real 182 cup, I've got one (for sale also) and its fantastic! It's incredibly capable, not just on the straights but in corners nothing has come close to me yet, including a friends Westfeild and a golf GTi, even on straights it's not much slower. I bought it with the intention of tracking it, as it's already set up and ready to go, but change of plans means It won't happen, but if you took bits out and tweaked bits it will only get better!

It looks alright too, not that it's important too much but it's a plus point

[T33JOB]

Clio 182 cup, not a 182 with cup packs, but the real 182 cup, I've got one (for sale also) and its fantastic! It's incredibly capable, not just on the straights but in corners nothing has come close to me yet, including a friends Westfeild and a golf GTi, even on straights it's not much slower. I bought it with the intention of tracking it, as it's already set up and ready to go, but change of plans means It won't happen, but if you took bits out and tweaked bits it will only get better!

It looks alright too, not that it's important too much but it's a plus point

[wackojacko]

Going to the 'ring in a few months in my track prepped beast, Really looking forward to it.


I'd suggest you buy something that's already been done for around 5-6k Take a look in the Track Car classifieds there are plenty of different options.


E36(non M3) - done to death but there is a reason for that !
-easy to get parts for
-cheap to repair
-good fun

Clio 172/MK2 Golf
-go really well
-fun
-cheap
-wouldn't spend more than 5k though.

Accord / Integra
VTEC's produce THE best track cars IMO.
Integra DC2 would be my choice for FWD.

MX5's
-lack in straightline pace but are fantastic fun and when set up properly are sensational throught the
twisties

Take a look at :
MR2's
E30's
Nissan Pulsar GTI-R's
Celica GT4's
ETC

[frosted]

What you want is an rx7 , parts easy to source and they are one of the best handling machines out there . 4k on rx7 with compression test and the rest on parts maybe single turbo conversion

[wackojacko]

frosted said:

What you want is an rx7 , parts easy to source and they are one of the best handling machines out there . 4k on rx7 with compression test and the rest on parts maybe single turbo conversion

...... and average 5mpg on track and stuid MPG on the road for not much performance in comparison with expense and MPG, it would kill you in fuel just getting to the 'ring in a tuned RX7.

[GreigM]

lou556 said:

so the car will have no aircon

I would say this is a mistake - especially going to the ring. When we were there in (a relatively warm) april two of the porsche in our group had no aircon and both drivers did less laps than they wanted as the heat inside the cars was reaching unbearable. For the theoretical performance drain of having the aircon too many people overlook the well-being of the driver....if you're feeling cool and relaxed behind the wheel you'll more than make up for the perceived performance drain (if any performance drain at all).

[VeeFour]

Very strange question, very strange posting history.

I don't get why we have people who'll happily waste the time of others with stuff like this.

[Kevin VRs]

Caterham or Westfield if all you are looking for is a fast road/track car.

[tyranical]

T33JOB said:

Clio 182 cup, not a 182 with cup packs, but the real 182 cup, I've got one (for sale also) and its fantastic! It's incredibly capable, not just on the straights but in corners nothing has come close to me yet, including a friends Westfeild and a golf GTi, even on straights it's not much slower. I bought it with the intention of tracking it, as it's already set up and ready to go, but change of plans means It won't happen, but if you took bits out and tweaked bits it will only get better!

It looks alright too, not that it's important too much but it's a plus point

Please tell me you didn't just say that your clio 182 is faster through corners than a Westfield and on the straights theres not much difference?

Yes they are capable cars but your an idiot if you really think your in a similar league to a Westfield.

Also, don't get the 182 cup, get the 172 cup. The 182 cup isn't a massive amount different from a normal 182 (your talking 20kg less weight) it was seen by most in the clio scene as a pointless car when it came out, the 172 cup is a real drivers car, it doesn't even have ABS.

[DanGPR]

lou556 said:

Morning people,
Just got back from a trip to the ring yesterday evening with my friends. My 1st time there and it was there 4th. We stayed at the Hotel an der Nordschleife which overlooks the Breidscheid Bridge section of The 'Ring. We regularly travelled the mountain roads, undertook many photo shoots, had a go-kart session, attacked the Ring and the Half+Full GP circuit. I found the whole area and the experience to be out of this world and again words can not describe who much I enjoyed it. I shall defiantly be making the trip back out there next year.
However not all is well!! I am now in the situation were I must decide which route to go down car wise. I am looking to build a track/fast road car over the next year for my return to the ring and also many other track days etc... Im looking to create a fairly focused car a CSL/RS of sorts so the car will have no aircon, rear interior, semi slick tyres, bracing..... I have a few firm favourites but after experiencing many different types of car over the last few days I really am torn !! I have the following ideas floating around in my head

E36 328I Saloon/Coupe
Accord Type R
306 GTI6
Golf GTI Mk2
Clio 172
Mazda MX5 - (so worried about the straight line performance)
( I am also 6'4" so would a lower seat sub frame solve this issue?)

As you will note all cars are N/A as I am looking for ultimate reliability and have all met critical acclaim in the motoring world in the past.

Which ever base I choose will be purchased based on mechanical condition and not appearance. Again I shall be looking to create a CSL/RS type car so most creature comforts removed but not all. I will be looking for a great response from the engine/drive-train and immediate response from the chassis.

I shall be looking to spend up to around £7-8k including the initial purchase of the car.

So whilst this post is turning into a bit of a what car it really is more of a share your experiences and knowledge and point me in the right direction.

Thanks PHers

Regards

Lewis

I'd write the MX5 off at your height- A friend has one , and we have bolted 2 fixed buckets directly to the floor, as far back as they will go , and it's only just enough (we are both 6' 1-2)

[lou556]

Indeed very strange posting history. My situation changes very often cars & career especially. I am serious about performance cars and driving and have a love for anything motoring related. Having driven and rode in many different performance cars of varying ages, performances and driving experiences I have a fair idea of which direction to go in track car wise was just looking for Phers experiences etc...

Expect to see a build thread very soon!

Thanks for the advice guys see you a the next breakfast meet.

Lewis

[CampDavid]

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2822241.htm

Cheeky plug, it's my car. Would be ideal though as mechanically it's spot on and would be more than happy at the ring. Willing to flex a little on the price if you're buying now as I need a barge for Le Mans

[TheStig44]

I can vouch for the E36 328 (Sport in this case). I went to the Nurburgring for the first time in April and I have to say the old BM did well, I can only imagine a more track focused one would be even more fun!

Few pics...






I will say that some decent rubber is needed! These are my tyres after just 1 lap!




But yeh, good fun. Also makes it a nice way to travel too and from the 'Ring as well.

[TameRacingDriver]

lou556 said:

I have the following ideas floating around in my head

E36 328I Saloon/Coupe
Accord Type R
306 GTI6
Golf GTI Mk2
Clio 172
Mazda MX5 - (so worried about the straight line performance)
( I am also 6'4" so would a lower seat sub frame solve this issue?)

Well I can't speak about the ring as never been and not likely to happen in the foreseeable future unfortunately, however, I have driven / owned many of the cars on your shortlist, so I might be able to help you there.

I've not driven the Accord, but I have had an Integra Type-R and to be honest, if the Accord was even close to the ITR as a driving experience, then it'd probably be my choice of the front drivers. Although the Accord is a much heavier car, and the gear ratios are apparently a little rubbish (car keeps dropping off cam on upchanges, apparently), and I doubt it would have the rawness, but what it does have is a fantastic engine, and a limited slip diff which always helps on a FWD car. I'm pretty sure its got double wishbone suspension all round too. If you can stretch to an Integra Type-R, it might just be my number one choice for hard driving out of all of the options. It is EXTREMELY rewarding to drive, it really needs to be worked very hard to get the best from it, but then you can be rest assured that if you can get good pace from it, then it's you, and not the car that has done all of the hard work, and that engine is fantastic, giving a vicious surge in power above 6,000 RPM, which simply does not relent until the limiter kicks in, and makes a glorious howl while it does. If you do get one though, don't stick a sports exhaust on, as for me, it spoiled it when I did. The handling was brilliant too, for what was quite a big car, its very light (the same as a clio 172 yet it is MUCH bigger), and you could do two different driving styles, you could either go for the precision driving style, then you could get silly amounts of grip, or you could make it dance by simply being a hooligan. It felt the least FWD like out of any of the cars I've driven. Superb. Excellent reliability, too. For a 1.8 litre engine, the performance is simply extremely impressive - I found it had the measure of a classic Scooby WRX in a little "duel"

I used to own a Mk2 Golf GTI. It wasn't fast, but it was a lot of fun, when it worked. Compared to modern cars, it is a very raw car indeed, with a loud, booming exhaust that actually I thought sounded quite pleasant for a 4-pot. Even though it wasn't fast, it felt pretty fast due to its rawness and lack of any refinement. Cheap as chips for parts and easy to work on. Its a light car, so you don't get too many issues with brake fade. Relatively softly sprung for a hot hatch, which gave it surprisingly supple ride, and allowed it to be really quite fast cross country. BUT, it was pretty damned uncomfortable, and there's no way I'd like to drive all the way to the ring in one, my back would not thank me for it. If the lack of straight line pace on the MX-5 worries you about that car, then it should with this as well, as they're pretty similar really in terms of pace, although I always thought the Golf felt a faster car even if it wasn't.

I also owned a Clio 182, so pretty similar to the 172 you are asking about. If you go for a 172, I'd recommend either a Cup or a Phase 1, the latter of which has a proper cable throttle which I hear makes all of the difference for throttle response, which was one of my major criticisms about the 182, it simply wasn't anywhere near as adjustable on the throttle. In terms of straight line speed, the Clio feels ballistically quick compared to the Golf, and part of that IMO is due to the way the power kicks in at 5,000 RPM; it feels merely nippy below that, but once above, it gives a good shove in the back and picks up its skirt and starts running, although I did feel it started to feel as though it had given most of what it had by about 6,500ish. The Clio had a lot of grip, so it could really give you a good turn of pace on a country road and surprise people in supposedly faster cars. A good desription is that the Clio did actually feel a lot like a much more modern and refined Golf GTI, but for me, some of the character is lost in these newer cars, and for me, the Clio simply wasn't as much fun, despite being faster in every way.

The onto the MX5, well this is a proper little sports car, and you buy these for the handling, and open top motoring fun. People always say they're slow, but actually, they really aren't as slow as most people make out. I found that mine would just about hang with most fastish cars even up to about 200 bhp or so, the 200-brake cars would be clearly faster, but it's not like they'd be disappearing into the distance instantly, more like they just slowly and gradually walked away. Problem for me though, was the engine, it's a coarse old thing, very reliable and fairly effective for sure, but it doesn't really have much character, and it doesn't have any real surge of power. It (the 1.8) was reasonably torquey for what it was, and although it was happy to rev to the limiter all day every day and not complain, it didn't really feel keen to rev. However, it has to be said, that the handling makes up for it, a very light, raw little car with perfect balance and throttle response. Best handling car out of your list to be quite honest. Ultimate pace is surprising if you know how to drive it, it'll definitely easily hang with the Clio 182s of this world on a B-road, no problem. When I had mine, I went on a PH run, and some of the others asked me what I had done to make it so quick... it was standard! But the thing is, considering it isn't exactly slow, it never really feels quick despite how raw it is. Mine was supercharged originally, although I removed it in the end, and it did feel a bit quicker, but it still was no fireball - although I suspect a turbo'd one running north of 200 bhp might change that somewhat

Finally, on to the BMW, which is the car I drive now. It is the only car on your list that I liked as much as the Integra, but for completely different reasons, and that is because it is such a good all rounder. For hard driving, I'd take the Integra, as it just feels more "up for it", but as a day to day car, the BMW takes the crown. The 6-cylinder engine always sounds good whether you're just bimbling along, or revving the nuts off it, and although an Integra is probably the more satisfying road weapon, its not like the BMW is not fun to hoon around in; indeed, its a different kind of pleasure, it feels like a more clumsy brute, but that has its own rewards, and a car that feels as big and heavy as it does shouldn't be able to go as fast as it does on a twisty road. If the Integra is a scalpel, the BMW is a lump hammer of a car. Its more "muscle car" than hot hatch / coupe. However, despite that, the BMW chassis is perfectly balanced, and the RWD handling is in some ways, more fun than any FWD car can be - they obviously drive completely differently, but I always feel like RWD rewards the driver more, as it is more difficult to truly master. And if you're doing a trip to the ring, then you'll definitely appreciate the extra refinement this car has to offer over the others, it can effortlessly demolish motorways with high levels of comfort, and it is a relaxing car on the motorway. However, I would say you will need some fast road pads at very least for braking - the brakes are good, but that extra weight really shows under repeated, sustained braking. As for pace, I have no complaints really, the gearing is a bit tall, but its happy to rev to the limiter, and it has bucket loads of torque for an N/A motor.

Hope this helps.

Edited by TameRacingDriver on Saturday 28th May 15:15

[craig7584]

I'm gonna stick to my usual answer. Honda s2000. Boom

[lou556]

S2000. Driven and been a passenger in one. Outstanding car in many respects.... however I do not get on with the small engine/lack of torque in a car that weighs 1250kg / Nor would I be happy pushing it on track due to the slightly twitchy chassis ( I know its really involving etc...) and the fact that they are known for suffering from oil starvation and I will be pushing the car hard on track lap after lap. Hence why many of my potential choices have a reliable & well proven track history. BOOM

Life at 9000rpm can be quite intoxicating though....

[Conor D]

Out of curiosity, how much could you expect to spend on a ring trip? Getting there, staying, driving, and coming home?