Electronic Stability Control to be standard from 2014
Discussion
Is it any more effective than ABS?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation
Drivers with ABS take less care so no overall reduction in accidents
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation
Drivers with ABS take less care so no overall reduction in accidents
Edited by saaby93 on Wednesday 1st June 09:55
ESC can perform very well in an emergency or be pretty much useless, it all depends on the basic performance of the car and the quality of the calibration.
I hope we never get to the point that it is illegal to switch off ESC, or even for manufacturers to sell a vehicle with an off switch fitted, but I can see it happening, can't argue with elf n' safety.
I hope we never get to the point that it is illegal to switch off ESC, or even for manufacturers to sell a vehicle with an off switch fitted, but I can see it happening, can't argue with elf n' safety.
I think once there will be sufficient data for ESC-equipped cars across all vehicle types and driver age ranges (most of the data the current '40% less fatals in single vehicle accidents' mantra stems from is based on data of Mercedes-Benz, the nature of whose cars and demographic of their drivers would surely skew the results somewhat) it will be found that there are fewer single vehicle accidents, but those that do happen will be at higher speeds - not unlike all the Quattros/Scoobies flying off the roads at the sort of pace that their drivers surely wouldn't dare, or even be able to reach, in 2WD cars in the same conditions.
Oh Goodie!
Is there any substance in the rumour that a person will be required to walk in front of a car waving a red flag from 2015?
My gizmos will look after me... my passport to subconsciously driving less carefully...
Altogether now..
There is only one safety device on any car worth a light.
The quality of the nut holding the steering wheel is the only safety device worth a damn.
..
Is there any substance in the rumour that a person will be required to walk in front of a car waving a red flag from 2015?
My gizmos will look after me... my passport to subconsciously driving less carefully...
Altogether now..
There is only one safety device on any car worth a light.
The quality of the nut holding the steering wheel is the only safety device worth a damn.
..
I turn off the TCS on my car because it hampers fast ish road driving too much (softens apparent clutch take-up on fast shifts etc)...
ESP is starting to annoy me too when driving spiritedly. BUT, it has helped out a few times too in 'normal' driving. Difficult one really.
ABS is the same. I've stopped in a panic ok without it, and with it, so it's another one that could be useful sometimes but not others.
All in, I don't think they add or reduce safety, they are just things to help people when they drive badly. That is the key issue. Do people drive badly more often knowing a system is there to try help them when they get it wrong?
Dave
ESP is starting to annoy me too when driving spiritedly. BUT, it has helped out a few times too in 'normal' driving. Difficult one really.
ABS is the same. I've stopped in a panic ok without it, and with it, so it's another one that could be useful sometimes but not others.
All in, I don't think they add or reduce safety, they are just things to help people when they drive badly. That is the key issue. Do people drive badly more often knowing a system is there to try help them when they get it wrong?
Dave
Mr Whippy said:
That is the key issue. Do people drive badly more often knowing a system is there to try help them when they get it wrong?
Dave
Maybe.Dave
The bigger issue though is the system correcting all signs that the car might already want to go in a slightly different direction than you, which would be a sign to back off a little or at least not push it any further - up to the point that you exceed the physical limits (which are pretty damn high in almost any modern car) where your electronic safeguard will shrug its virtual shoulders.
I have no qualms whatsoever with having ESP on vehicles that are dynamically compromised like SUVs, small vans or other tall vehicles, or where the permitted payload makes a huge difference in the overall weight, weight balance and/or CofG. Their characteristics or change in characteristics can potentially catch out a driver behaving in a reasonable fashion.
Having it mandatory across the board however strikes me as a knee-jerk reaction restricting freedom of choice and hampering more capable drivers (not everyone can afford a Ferrari or other specialist car where considerable effort is being made in mapping these systems to suit the 'advanced' driver, and even then you might prefer the feedback of a 'pure' car without the 'noise' on the lines generated by electronic intervention) with questionable safety benefits.
Well on the one hand it is good that there will be more safety features as standard on new cars but bad in the sense that it further adds to the complacency that has developed over the last decade and is going to mean even more people on the road who potentially have never driven a car with no electronic aids and wouldn't have an idea what to do in a situation in which ESP is needed nor is it likely they would understand how they got into such a situation.
In an ideal world you should have to learn to drive in a car with no electronic aids, no abs, no power steering, no bloody parking sensors and have to rely on good old fashion sense/feel and develop a better understanding of why cars behave the way they do in different circumstances.
dave
In an ideal world you should have to learn to drive in a car with no electronic aids, no abs, no power steering, no bloody parking sensors and have to rely on good old fashion sense/feel and develop a better understanding of why cars behave the way they do in different circumstances.
dave
Zod said:
Who cares, so long as there is an off switch? Answer: the chetwig brigade alone.
Or, potentially, your insurers... You might have a challenge claiming on your insurance when you leave the road and it is found your 'life saving' ESC system had been switched off for no apparent good reason. 
Police might be interested, too.
If the system's not there, both you and your insurers are aware of this and will calculate risk accordingly....
I dont think it adds to complacency, I dont think the average Heat reading, Iphone texting Mini driver actually knows which set of wheels on her Cooper ("its reeeeally fast") is actually driven ("er, doesnt the exhaust blow it along ?") so explaining the complexities of ABS, ESP, Brake Assist etc etc will probably go in one ear and out the other, most people arent interested in "hooning", ok they drive fast but breaking traction isnt on the agenda unless they get it wrong and therefor ESP to bail them out is a good thing, and me, I know its there but rarely have it activate as I dont drive that fast on the roads.
I think its a good thing as has been said, for most people, most of the time, ok you may be "hooning" nicely but the Mini coming the other way may be on a collision course as the driver has misjudged the corner or hit some diesel and hasnt the skill to sort out the slide, I would rather entrust that responsibility to skilled software and chassis engineers rather than some muppet trying to write a text at sixty mph, that is an education and prosecution argument, not an electronic one.
I think its a good thing as has been said, for most people, most of the time, ok you may be "hooning" nicely but the Mini coming the other way may be on a collision course as the driver has misjudged the corner or hit some diesel and hasnt the skill to sort out the slide, I would rather entrust that responsibility to skilled software and chassis engineers rather than some muppet trying to write a text at sixty mph, that is an education and prosecution argument, not an electronic one.
kambites said:
Assuming these will still be a mechanism to get small-volume cars onto the road without it, as there is with ABS at the moment, it's probably a good thing.
+Zod said:
Who cares, so long as there is an off switch?
+1As long as I can still build a car in my garage without it and have the car road registered, and I can turn it off on a modern car that I buy I'll be happy. It's a good thing for general driving but it does interfere with more spirited driving unless its been very carefully setup.
I guess you can always re-program them in the future, hmmmmm...
Problem might be some ESP implements might be crap. I guess people who are buying sportier cars will vote with their feet if they can't be enjoyed, so they won't sell any
I guess that it is good our motoring press take road cars on track, since they can really feel what these cars do on the limit and beyond and fully appraise these systems from a 'drivers' perspective!
As long as they don't all go "Ferrari" on us and have to say good things even though they are s
t, or mislead people about how good a car is for 6 months, till they suddenly realise it's not 
Or just buy a car that doesn't need it. Ultima GTR anyone
Dave
Problem might be some ESP implements might be crap. I guess people who are buying sportier cars will vote with their feet if they can't be enjoyed, so they won't sell any
I guess that it is good our motoring press take road cars on track, since they can really feel what these cars do on the limit and beyond and fully appraise these systems from a 'drivers' perspective!
As long as they don't all go "Ferrari" on us and have to say good things even though they are s
t, or mislead people about how good a car is for 6 months, till they suddenly realise it's not Or just buy a car that doesn't need it. Ultima GTR anyone
Dave
Nagra said:
I can't help thinking those two scenarios aren't comparable?Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff