Caterham 21

[DrTre]

What went "wrong"?

Did they fall between two stools, neither Caterham-y enough for some nor major manufacturer-y for others?

I know they weren't ever intended to be a volume seller (even by Caterham standards) but I like them.

Any ideas on the going price when they come on the market?

ETA ... should probably be in the Caterham section. Doh! Mods, if you come across this, please feel free to move.TY

[kambites]

What happened, was that Lotus released the Elise.

With Lotus now abandoning the relatively affordable, lightweight but still usable end of the market, I wouldn't be surprised if Caterham reenter it.

Edited by kambites on Wednesday 10th August 10:16

[Baffled Spoon]

I really like these too. In fact, when Caterham announced a new model a few months back, I was hoping for a successor to the 21 rather than yet another expensive trackday only model. Surely that market has reached saturation point by now?

[Asterix]

It would now probably be stacked against the new Ginetta.

[DrTre]

Fair point re the Lotus and that's very likely the major reason, though I'd still have thought there was a market for a more practical Seven.

[Deerfoot]

Slightly O/T but I see a blue Caterham 21 every morning on the M27 regardless of weather.

[kambites]

DrTre said:

Fair point re the Lotus and that's very likely the major reason, though I'd still have thought there was a market for a more practical Seven.

I think the problem with the 21, was that it wasn't good enough. It was no faster than the Elise and didn't handle as well; it was no more practical; NVH was worse; and it cost 25% more.

It's a shame, because the idea had a lot of potential - the execution wasn't good enough. You couldn't even open the windows without ten minutes and a set of tools.

Edited by kambites on Wednesday 10th August 10:44

[DrTre]

Now I can see why it wasn't a big seller.

Wonder if Caterham will take the chance to re-enter the segment as you guys have pointed out? Once bitten etc?

Shame if they didn't take the opportunity..

[kambites]

As someone said above, they'll be up against Ginetta if they do and by every account the G40R is a damned good car, albeit one with NVH problems too:

http://www.pistonheads.com/roadtests/doc.asp?c=47&...

[blearyeyedboy]

Caterham 21 was a good idea but poorly executed and embarrassed by the Lotus Elise.

With Tony Fernandes keen to grow Caterham, it'd be interesting to see if they'd like another crack at this market area in a few years' time.

[kambites]

There has been some (probably entirely baseless) speculation that Caterham might buy the rights to the Elise chassis when Lotus move on and up out of the market.

[DrTre]

kambites said:

As someone said above, they'll be up against Ginetta if they do and by every account the G40R is a damned good car, albeit one with NVH problems too:

http://www.pistonheads.com/roadtests/doc.asp?c=47&...

Superficially at least, to my eyes the Ginetta looks a lot more kit car than the 21 (even now).

[kambites]

DrTre said:

Superficially at least, to my eyes the Ginetta looks a lot more kit car than the 21 (even now).

Interesting, I'd say the opposite.

[DrTre]

Looking again, I take that back, that was unfair (though I assume the bootlid isn't actually shut).

TBH, I don't like the rear three quarters view...it resembles like the Z4 coupe and T350 which are both exceptionally awkward looking to me.

I've learned the hard way to see something in the "metal" before passing judgement though. I like it and I'd like to see it.

[Risotto]

DrTre said:

I'd still have thought there was a market for a more practical Seven.

Ture, but the 21 was not that car. Fundamentally, I guess it failed because it was a heavier, slower Seven which offered very little additional practicality. The Elise wasn't particularly practical either but it at least offered a fancy aluminium chassis, mid-engined layout, reasonable dealer network, etc.

In addition, the 21 really was developed on a shoestring and it showed. The original show car's aluminium body was ditched in favour of GRP; they had fixed windows, symmetrical dash, etc.

Edited by Risotto on Wednesday 10th August 11:44

[rob.e]

kambites said:

I think the problem with the 21, was that it wasn't good enough. It was no faster than the Elise and didn't handle as well; it was no more practical; NVH was worse; and it cost 25% more.

It's a shame, because the idea had a lot of potential - the execution wasn't good enough. You couldn't even open the windows without ten minutes and a set of tools.

Edited by kambites on Wednesday 10th August 10:44

Agree. I looked at one some time back, same conclusions. I bought an elise instead.

[icepop]

Yep, I'd have to go along with the suggestions that the Elise just did everything that bit better, and, unfortunately for Caterham, came out at exactly the same time. The 21 had fixed windows, and if you think the sills on the Elise are high and wide, take a look at the 21's.
The 21 was a 7 chassis underneath, (no bad thing on the handling front), and had the same restrictions size wise, whereas the Elise has acres of space in comparison. However, at the time I was a 7 owner, and lusted after a VX engined 21, the shape, to me, is far more pleasing than my current Elise mk 2, it just looks right from every angle, where the Elise can look awkward from some angles with it's T-bar type open top, the 21 just flows with the far more pleasing proper open top design.

Yeah, good cars, true future classics, lucky owners.

[morgrp]

If I recall correctly wasn't it quite expensive too? Like circa 35grand?

[morgrp]

If I recall correctly wasn't it quite expensive too? Like circa 35grand?

[DKL]

Thought I'd pitch in since I have one.
Its got to be more practical than a 7 or an Elise - the boot is huge for a car of that ilk. People have said its a little claustrophobic with the roof up and the windows not opening doesn't do it any favours.
It is a very comfortable car to sit in and drive and you feel far less vulnerable than in a 7. The sills are high as the trapezoid strengthening in them added a huge amount of extra stiffness over the equivalent 7 chassis.
Yes getting in and out, especially with the roof up, is an acquired art but I'm 6'2 and don't really have any issues.
The problem in my mind was that it was marketed all wrong. The ads showed a car outside a country hotel - very SL like. If prospective owners went along expecting an alternative to a Boxster or Z3 they were in for a shock as it wasn't that sort of car. It was a 7 in a posh frock and only slightly more civilised.
It was quite pricey (not quite 35K though) - supersports were 23K ish but the (very few, maybe 4) vhpd versions got uncomfortably close to 30K which was too much. I've seen T plate car but that's about the end I think.
We are collectively still developing the cars even now, there were only 48 after all.
On the plus side no one knows what they are and you aren't going to meet another!