Cars vs Bikes

[Schnellmann]

Was reading article below on Car.

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Community/Car-Magazin...

I've often suspected that the rider makes much more difference to bike lap times than car lap times but it is just a gut feeling. By that I mean, if you take an average ability car enthusiast to a track and provide a sports car and some tuition then take a lap time and compare it to the lap time of an expert driver and then do the same with an average rider/sports bike/expert rider that the difference would be much greater. Making figures up here to illustrate my point, perhaps the car driver would have a lap time 110% of the expert driver but the bike rider would be 130%.

Pure speculation but I wonder if it has been tested?

[300bhp/ton]

Schnellmann said:

Was reading article below on Car.

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Community/Car-Magazin...

I've often suspected that the rider makes much more difference to bike lap times than car lap times but it is just a gut feeling. By that I mean, if you take an average ability car enthusiast to a track and provide a sports car and some tuition then take a lap time and compare it to the lap time of an expert driver and then do the same with an average rider/sports bike/expert rider that the difference would be much greater. Making figures up here to illustrate my point, perhaps the car driver would have a lap time 110% of the expert driver but the bike rider would be 130%.

Pure speculation but I wonder if it has been tested?

The only trouble is - what is average??

And I think with cars and bikes a like, it really depends on the exact specific model/setup. Some cars are simply easier to drive near the limit (and their theoretical fastest lap times) than others.

[off_again]

Its been done a few times before - basically where the car often catches up is in braking and cornering (well, its got significantly more footprint on the tarmac) but loses in the acceleration part.

Different circuits make up different parts of the performance envelope (to coin a phrase). I would be the same as this bloke from CAR magazine - Cadwell park is a bit of a twisty course that requires commitment, not really for novices. I for one would probably pap my pants!

However, I wonder if anyone did the numbers and added in cost to the mix? I mean, its pretty easy to get a car that will out run a big sports bike, but at what cost? And if cost isnt a matter, can I bring a Eurofighter to the race please?

[Prof Prolapse]

I think you're as well starting a, "Chalk vs. Cheese" thread.

You're going to have to come up with some incredibly lengthy definitions to see this go anywhere beyond just mindless arguing.

[kambites]

Cue all the people who haven't actually read the initial post, arguing about whether bikes are faster than cars.

I think it is harder to get near the limit on a bike, not because it's an inherently harder thing to keep under the limits of grip, but because bikes are much less forgiving past the limit. With a bit of practice, anyone can catch a slide at either end in a reasonably set up car. A bike which lets go mid-corner is a rather different beastie because as well as balancing front and rear-end grip, you've got to balance, well, "balance".

Having said that, it depends on the exact vehicles in question. I'm a respectable driver but nothing special - stick me in my car, and I'll probably get within 15% of anyone else's lap time. Stick me in an F1 car and I'd be lucky to manage twice their time.

Edited by kambites on Monday 26th September 14:33

[MC Bodge]

Cars and bikes are very different flavours of a similar thing. Both are great for those of us lucky to enjoy both.

Riding a bike hard requires a lot of 'commitment', but can be very rewarding.

Let's stop it right here.

Edited by MC Bodge on Monday 26th September 14:42

[300bhp/ton]

off_again said:

Its been done a few times before - basically where the car often catches up is in braking and cornering (well, its got significantly more footprint on the tarmac) but loses in the acceleration part.

Different circuits make up different parts of the performance envelope (to coin a phrase). I would be the same as this bloke from CAR magazine - Cadwell park is a bit of a twisty course that requires commitment, not really for novices. I for one would probably pap my pants!

However, I wonder if anyone did the numbers and added in cost to the mix? I mean, its pretty easy to get a car that will out run a big sports bike, but at what cost? And if cost isnt a matter, can I bring a Eurofighter to the race please?

lol, you might want to read the OP was well as the thread title.....

[Prof Prolapse]

300bhp/ton said:

off_again said:

Its been done a few times before - basically where the car often catches up is in braking and cornering (well, its got significantly more footprint on the tarmac) but loses in the acceleration part.

Different circuits make up different parts of the performance envelope (to coin a phrase). I would be the same as this bloke from CAR magazine - Cadwell park is a bit of a twisty course that requires commitment, not really for novices. I for one would probably pap my pants!

However, I wonder if anyone did the numbers and added in cost to the mix? I mean, its pretty easy to get a car that will out run a big sports bike, but at what cost? And if cost isnt a matter, can I bring a Eurofighter to the race please?

lol, you might want to read the OP was well as the thread title.....

To be fair that is a nice response to 99.9% of the threads that have this title on Pistonheads.

[kambites]

Prof Prolapse said:

To be fair that is a nice response to 99.9% of the threads that have this title on Pistonheads.

True, but writing such a long detailed answer to a question that wasn't asked is a bit silly.

[jackh707]

I wonder which would go quicker around the isle of man?

[Aizle]

jackh707 said:

I wonder which would go quicker around the isle of man?

Depends on the conveyor belt.

[Schnellmann]

I think it is harder to get near the limit on a bike, not because it's an inherently harder thing to keep under the limits of grip, but because bikes are much less forgiving past the limit.

Having said that, it depends on the exact vehicles in question. I'm a respectable driver but nothing special - stick me in my car, and I'll probably get within 15% of anyone else's lap time. Stick me in an F1 car and I'd be lucky to manage twice their time.

Edited by kambites on Monday 26th September 14:33

[/quote]

I was thinking say 458 for a car and R1 for a bike (both being road going).

I think you are right on an F1 car because to get a good time you need to drive fast enough to get tyres warm and also fast enough to bring aerodynamics into play.

[stickyr6]

jackh707 said:

I wonder which would go quicker around the isle of man?

The Subaru WRX STI set a time of 19min 37.4sec around the Isle of Man TT course

Bruce Anstey 999cc Honda / Padgetts Motorcycles 17 13.46 131.431 Fri, 3rd June practice

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/car-manufactur...

http://www.iomtt.com/TT-2012/2011-TT-Results.aspx

[BlueEyedBoy]

I have never crashed a car, but have crashed a bike. I drive a car much harder on a road than I do my bike. You have to have some cells missing to ride a bike at the limit, but in a car you know there is a good chance of surviving. I think this would make a big difference to Joe Public and helps explain your theory that car drivers would be closer, simply as they have less chance of dying at the limit .

[jackh707]

stickyr6 said:

The Subaru WRX STI set a time of 19min 37.4sec around the Isle of Man TT course

Bruce Anstey 999cc Honda / Padgetts Motorcycles 17 13.46 131.431 Fri, 3rd June practice

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/car-manufactur...

http://www.iomtt.com/TT-2012/2011-TT-Results.aspx

I'm surprised the car isn't quicker than the bike given it has maybe 100hp moar?

[kambites]

I suspect the gap in safety on the track is narrower than on the road, though, since there's generally not big hard things in places you're likely to hit them or be hit by them.

[Schnellmann]

kambites said:

I suspect the gap in safety on the track is narrower than on the road, though, since there's generally not big hard things in places you're likely to hit them or be hit by them.

Agreed...but consequences are not the same. I had an off at Castle Combe in my Integrale and only my pride suffered whereas an off at Silverstone on a rented R6 wasn't quite so straight forward. So yes, you are less likely to die or injure yourself on a bike when riding on a track (as opposed to the road) but with a car you often get away with no injury...with a bike it is usually more a question of how much it hurts! That tends to focus the mind somewhat (unless your missing a few cells in the part of the brain that deals with fear, which I think is probably required to set a good time on a bike).

[Crapaud]

Schnellmann said:

I think it is harder to get near the limit on a bike, not because it's an inherently harder thing to keep under the limits of grip, but because bikes are much less forgiving past the limit.

Having said that, it depends on the exact vehicles in question. I'm a respectable driver but nothing special - stick me in my car, and I'll probably get within 15% of anyone else's lap time. Stick me in an F1 car and I'd be lucky to manage twice their time.

Edited by kambites on Monday 26th September 14:33

I was thinking say 458 for a car and R1 for a bike (both being road going).

I think you are right on an F1 car because to get a good time you need to drive fast enough to get tyres warm and also fast enough to bring aerodynamics into play.

[/quote=schnellmann]



If someone is willing to supply the 458 then I'd be willing to submit to the test.
I've done track days on an R1 and got nowhere near what the bike is capable of for the simple reason that I don't want to die yet. However, safely strapped into a 458 I would be willing to push things nearer the limit.

Edited by Crapaud on Monday 26th September 15:53

[walm]

Even in a straight line I am sure what the OP wrote holds.

Getting close to 100% on a bike takes huge amounts of skill and experience while putting something 4-wheeled with launch mode and planting your right foot can't be that hard!!

Back in my CBR days after 2 years of ownership, I had literally NEVER pulled the throttle all the way.
It was a brown trouser moment any time the front wheel started to get close to lift off and anyone who has watched a bike on the track a little wheelie seems almost inevitable when the decent riders accelerate.

[muthaducka]

walm said:

Even in a straight line I am sure what the OP wrote holds.

Getting close to 100% on a bike takes huge amounts of skill and experience while putting something 4-wheeled with launch mode and planting your right foot can't be that hard!!

Back in my CBR days after 2 years of ownership, I had literally NEVER pulled the throttle all the way.
It was a brown trouser moment any time the front wheel started to get close to lift off and anyone who has watched a bike on the track a little wheelie seems almost inevitable when the decent riders accelerate.

My first bike was a CBR600. Without prior experience, I went in for a 10 day crash course, passed and then went out and treated myself. I phoned my dad after a couple of days and asked him, "how do you keep hold of / stay on the bike when giving it the beans?" I couldn't get anywhere near full throttle at first. Then with practice, comfortably bouncing it off the limiter in all the gears (on a straight road at least). Bends are a whole different ball game. I'm happy to compete against anyone pound for pound on a track, in a car. On a bike I found it really tough to judge corners and push my limits. Drain covers, horse shyte, oil - so many dangers on the road for a motorcyclist, one slip or misjudgement and you're in big trouble.

If the battle was drawn on a race track with decent run off's etc, I reckon the percentage difference would reduce.
The introduction of the F1 car into the argument is great. Now you could say what about a fiesta 1.1. pop vs a scooter / 125cc bike on track - that would level things out!