Diesel Cleaner fuel or Climate change Hype??
Discussion
Diesels may well produce less co2 emissions and get better mileage, but they will kill us all! Ask any respitory physician and they will tell you of the harmful noxious gasses they spew out the back! There have been studies on people living in cities with (many diesel vehicles) versus people who live in the country (diesel far between) - the outcome (only in deceased people obviously) when lungs dissected, city folk had black lungs versus normal lungs for the country folk!
It seems that most of Europe has already gone/ going the way of the diesel car to save money, co2 emissions etc, and even down here in Australia it is becoming a worrying trend.
We are striving to have a pristine upper atmosphere and stop green house warming, while everything down at ground level will be dead...... the name of the fuel really does sum it up!
It seems that most of Europe has already gone/ going the way of the diesel car to save money, co2 emissions etc, and even down here in Australia it is becoming a worrying trend.
We are striving to have a pristine upper atmosphere and stop green house warming, while everything down at ground level will be dead...... the name of the fuel really does sum it up!
Walk through any congested town or city and the only time you'll have breathing issues is when you walk behind a bus. Buses chuck out almost stoneage amounts of nox gases and dangerous particulates, up to 70 times more than a small petrol car one study estimated. Yet 'modern 21st century transport solutions' revolves around banning the car and putting more buses on, with people behind it on bicycles, who will slowly die of lung cancer.
Diesel is more economical which is why its favoured, there was a time when the tax was lower on diesel and manufacturers charged the same for their diesel model as the petrol, sometimes even less. That was only a handful of years ago. It may produce less co2 but with a higher efficiency rate thats to be expected. I think the EU are finally realising co2 isnt the issue, 95% of it in the atmosphere is from natural sources and cars are only a tiny slice of the rest, with UK cars being a tiny slice from a tiny slice. The issue now is the increase of diesel usage has led to increase in nox gases which has prompted the DPF's which is like having a £1000 bill every year, because it will go wrong.
Diesel is more economical which is why its favoured, there was a time when the tax was lower on diesel and manufacturers charged the same for their diesel model as the petrol, sometimes even less. That was only a handful of years ago. It may produce less co2 but with a higher efficiency rate thats to be expected. I think the EU are finally realising co2 isnt the issue, 95% of it in the atmosphere is from natural sources and cars are only a tiny slice of the rest, with UK cars being a tiny slice from a tiny slice. The issue now is the increase of diesel usage has led to increase in nox gases which has prompted the DPF's which is like having a £1000 bill every year, because it will go wrong.
Diesel engines should have an advantage of being able to run on bio fuels which kills the CO2 argument
As to cack out the back a new petrol CAR is about the same as a new diesel CAR.
But older and larger vehicles then diesel is a dirty bugger.
Electric is the cleanest of the lot but electric cars are full of nasty metals where as petrol cars are grown in large fields and are 100% metal and chemical free.
As to cack out the back a new petrol CAR is about the same as a new diesel CAR.
But older and larger vehicles then diesel is a dirty bugger.
Electric is the cleanest of the lot but electric cars are full of nasty metals where as petrol cars are grown in large fields and are 100% metal and chemical free.
swerni said:
Wouldn't that depend on how the electricity was produced?
Potentially are you just moving the point of pollution from the car to the power generator?
Assuming you live near a road could you please stand next to it for an hour and count how many of the following drive past your housePotentially are you just moving the point of pollution from the car to the power generator?
1 Petrol cars
2 Diesel cars
3 Buses
4 Trucks and vans
5 Power stations
A fiver sayes that you get less power stations then cars
Electric vehicles displace the pollution away from population centres so you aren't breathing in crap.
Sadly due to the green movement the only pollution people think of is CO2 so as long as you don't produce CO2 you can do whatever you like to air quality
thinfourth2 said:
Electric vehicles displace the pollution away from population centres so you aren't breathing in crap.
Funny thing about Earth's atmosphere and ecosystems being closed systems - it doesn't actually matter where the crap goes into them, just that it does - or doesn't, preferably. thinfourth2 said:
Assuming you live near a road could you please stand next to it for an hour and count how many of the following drive past your house
1 Petrol cars
2 Diesel cars
3 Buses
4 Trucks and vans
5 Power stations
You say that but I was driving down the M11 last night and overtaken by Sizewell B.1 Petrol cars
2 Diesel cars
3 Buses
4 Trucks and vans
5 Power stations
Zwoelf said:
thinfourth2 said:
Electric vehicles displace the pollution away from population centres so you aren't breathing in crap.
Funny thing about Earth's atmosphere and ecosystems being closed systems - it doesn't actually matter where the crap goes into them, just that it does - or doesn't, preferably. The argument for electric is that it causes less pollution per watt or kwh or whatever you use to measure power output for mass generation as opposed to local generation (e.g. in a petrol car).
So consequently the pollution per mile travelled is less in electric than in other powered cars
So consequently the pollution per mile travelled is less in electric than in other powered cars
daz3210 said:
The argument for electric is that it causes less pollution per watt or kwh or whatever you use to measure power output for mass generation as opposed to local generation (e.g. in a petrol car).
So consequently the pollution per mile travelled is less in electric than in other powered cars
But they are rubbish and expensive, last only 5 minutes if you drive over 10mph and will kill innocent children because they are quiet! So consequently the pollution per mile travelled is less in electric than in other powered cars
To answer the OP diesel is generally not as clean but the governement have become fixated on CO2 so that is what dictates the popularity of it. That and the miles per gallon for those on long commutes etc. I would imagine the differences will depend on a lot of things (age of car, numbers of each fuel type etc) but you can feel how bad it is when walking past a bus as someone has already mentioned.
Hydrogen is the way forward in my view. The benefits of electric for the environment with the benefit that we don't need to change driving habits (just stop a filling station, fill up and go again). Shame only Honda seem interested in taking this forward at the moment.
telecat said:
So is Diesel fuel REALLY cleaner than Petrol. Lets discount co2 as a factor. To me it's a "red herring" that is used to justify higher taxes. On the other hand the amount of Carbon as Soot that Diesels produce is at best annoying and at worst causes people to run away to avoid it.
If you discount the CO2 argument, I don't think anyone would argue that diesels are cleaner. But only if you discount the CO2 argument. thinfourth2 said:
Assuming you live near a road could you please stand next to it for an hour and count how many of the following drive past your house
1 Petrol cars
2 Diesel cars
3 Buses
4 Trucks and vans
5 Power stations
A fiver sayes that you get less power stations then cars
I'm guessing you've put them in that order and deliberately not listed electric vehicles at all, on the basis that I'm more likely to see a power station drive past my house than I am an electric car?1 Petrol cars
2 Diesel cars
3 Buses
4 Trucks and vans
5 Power stations
A fiver sayes that you get less power stations then cars
Zwoelf said:
thinfourth2 said:
Electric vehicles displace the pollution away from population centres so you aren't breathing in crap.
Funny thing about Earth's atmosphere and ecosystems being closed systems - it doesn't actually matter where the crap goes into them, just that it does - or doesn't, preferably. Toro Rosso said:
Hydrogen is the way forward in my view. The benefits of electric for the environment with the benefit that we don't need to change driving habits (just stop a filling station, fill up and go again). Shame only Honda seem interested in taking this forward at the moment.
No the future is fossil fueled cars, battery powered cars and plugin hybridsPlugin hybrids for those with a short commute and the odd long distant hop
Electric cars for short disance commuting
Fossil fueled for the petrolhead and those wierd people with a 300mile commute and a house that moves around randomly.
Because 99% of cars are fossil fueled folk have this wierd idea that the future is 99% of transport using the same power source which is frankly moronic.
So I can have my electric daily driver hopefully and you can have your hydrogen car and the petrolheads can have a fossil fueled one
By plug-in hybrids, I assume you mean range extender electric cars? It makes no sense to have the petrol engine capable of driving the wheels.
I think plug-in hydrogen/electric hybrids probably have a place, using the more efficient electric running mode for the vast majority of trips and then the less efficiently generated hydrogen for longer journeys. That removes the need for an internal combustion engine, since both systems use an electric motor as the final drive, and removes nasty localised pollution. It is rather reliant on being able to generate enough electricity, though.
I think plug-in hydrogen/electric hybrids probably have a place, using the more efficient electric running mode for the vast majority of trips and then the less efficiently generated hydrogen for longer journeys. That removes the need for an internal combustion engine, since both systems use an electric motor as the final drive, and removes nasty localised pollution. It is rather reliant on being able to generate enough electricity, though.
thinfourth2 said:
No the future is fossil fueled cars, battery powered cars and plugin hybrids
Plugin hybrids for those with a short commute and the odd long distant hop
Electric cars for short disance commuting
Fossil fueled for the petrolhead and those wierd people with a 300mile commute and a house that moves around randomly.
Because 99% of cars are fossil fueled folk have this wierd idea that the future is 99% of transport using the same power source which is frankly moronic.
So I can have my electric daily driver hopefully and you can have your hydrogen car and the petrolheads can have a fossil fueled one
I should have clarified, I meant in a debate between battery powered electric and hydrogen only. I don't agree with all the eco crap anyway (the world got hotter and cooler on its own long before we came around) so would be quite happy for things to stay as they are.Plugin hybrids for those with a short commute and the odd long distant hop
Electric cars for short disance commuting
Fossil fueled for the petrolhead and those wierd people with a 300mile commute and a house that moves around randomly.
Because 99% of cars are fossil fueled folk have this wierd idea that the future is 99% of transport using the same power source which is frankly moronic.
So I can have my electric daily driver hopefully and you can have your hydrogen car and the petrolheads can have a fossil fueled one
I also agree that the move to cars also powered by electric (in whatever form) will be a gradual and long process to include plenty of hybrids and transport mixes.
kambites said:
By plug-in hybrids, I assume you mean range extender electric cars? It makes no sense to have the petrol engine capable of driving the wheels.
I think plug-in hydrogen/electric hybrids probably have a place, using the more efficient electric running mode for the vast majority of trips and then the less efficiently generated hydrogen for longer journeys. That removes the need for an internal combustion engine, since both systems use an electric motor as the final drive, and removes nasty localised pollution. It is rather reliant on being able to generate enough electricity, though.
Plug-in hybrids come in so many different flavours its better not to focus on one type.I think plug-in hydrogen/electric hybrids probably have a place, using the more efficient electric running mode for the vast majority of trips and then the less efficiently generated hydrogen for longer journeys. That removes the need for an internal combustion engine, since both systems use an electric motor as the final drive, and removes nasty localised pollution. It is rather reliant on being able to generate enough electricity, though.
serial ones, parellel ones, diesel ones, petrol ones and thats just coming to the market in the next 12 months
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