The future for car enthusiasts

[Ecosseven]

In the age of speed cameras, increased congestion, rocketing fuel costs and dwindling disposable income what is the future for the car enthusiast on a budget looking for a new car? I’m deliberately limiting this to new cars as we all know that you can pick up second hand bargains once depreciation has taken hold.

My view is that manufacturers need to focus on reducing weight through the use of new materials. The vast majority of people are unlikely to want to drive cars without airbags, crumple zones, air conditioning, decent stereos, sound proofing, etc. Reducing weight will improve fuel economy, provide better acceleration, increase cornering speeds, reduce the need for large wheels and tyres and also massive brakes. (My Caterham runs 14” wheels on 185 section yokohama rubber with small non vented disks). So is the way forward increased use of aluminium or should manufacturers be looking at high quality GRP or carbon fibre?

In addition to the reducing weight I think that manufacturers need to focus on making cars that feel exciting and that are fun to drive at slower speeds. I recently drove a BMW 335i. Fantastic car, very refined but just a bit dull even at high speed.

One car I am very much looking forward to is the new MX-5. I don’t have any details but I would imagine that it will be small, affordable, very well engineered, handle well, have adequate performance, and be cheap to run (low CO2 and relatively high MPG). I am also delighted to hear that Mazda is targeting a 50kg weight reduction - The current MX-5 isn’t exactly heavy when compared with the current Z4 or SLK.

Edited by Ecosseven on Monday 24th October 15:00

[Gad-Westy]

Don't think there is much to argue with there except I'm not sure how much actual weights are going to come down. If hybrids or electric cars become the norm, I suspect overall weights will increase though manufacturers may still look to using lighter materials just to try and offset things a little. I think that's going to be purely cost driven though. If CF somehow becomes cheaper to work with it's the obvious choice but that remains a big IF.

Can't see wheels getting smaller though. I think that's far more of a fashion issue than an engineering one.

Hard to see what there is going to be for the enthusiast. I'd say in the short term it'll be fairly light, small engined, forced induction sportscars a-la- Afla 4C and forthcoming MX5. After that, it's hard to say, really depends on whether the future turns out be electric after all.

[Riknos]

Cars have been getting heavier and heavier over time, they're not going to get any lighter... keep dreaming..

[mgmrw]

Theoretically what's stopping mainstream manufacturers releasing "purists" editions like Lambo and Ferrari do?


I.e. Ford Fiest ST, with no abs, no air con, no leather seats (replace with lightweight ones), no big chunky interior. Just a stripped back, car.

Keep the essential mandatory stuff, but remove curtain airbags, air con, passenger airbag, and so on.


Or am I a million miles off the issues?

[mrmr96]

mgmrw said:

Theoretically what's stopping mainstream manufacturers releasing "purists" editions like Lambo and Ferrari do?


I.e. Ford Fiest ST, with no abs, no air con, no leather seats (replace with lightweight ones), no big chunky interior. Just a stripped back, car.

Keep the essential mandatory stuff, but remove curtain airbags, air con, passenger airbag, and so on.


Or am I a million miles off the issues?

R26.R?

[mgmrw]

mrmr96 said:

R26.R?

that's one. Suppose the "cup" spec clios?

But no-one else really does it do they?

Say a 2500cc engine 1 series, lightweight and with no fancy crap?

[5lab]

mgmrw said:

Theoretically what's stopping mainstream manufacturers releasing "purists" editions like Lambo and Ferrari do?


I.e. Ford Fiest ST, with no abs, no air con, no leather seats (replace with lightweight ones), no big chunky interior. Just a stripped back, car.

Keep the essential mandatory stuff, but remove curtain airbags, air con, passenger airbag, and so on.


Or am I a million miles off the issues?

renault did this with the r26-r. no-one bought it. I guess that's going to stop them doing it again

[TheEnd]

Not all cars have been getting heavier, they look bigger, but they aren't always heavier.

They are also doing a lot of stuff on weight reduction, there are plenty of cars now with plastic wings. Lighter cars are more economical, and better for C02.

[Ecosseven]

mrmr96 said:

mgmrw said:

Theoretically what's stopping mainstream manufacturers releasing "purists" editions like Lambo and Ferrari do?


I.e. Ford Fiest ST, with no abs, no air con, no leather seats (replace with lightweight ones), no big chunky interior. Just a stripped back, car.

Keep the essential mandatory stuff, but remove curtain airbags, air con, passenger airbag, and so on.


Or am I a million miles off the issues?

R26.R?

A great car but in their quest to make it light and more focussed they removed the back seats. the whole point of a hot hatch is that it is practical as well as fast / fun. Still I have to give Renault the credit for producing a seriously sharp car. Renaultsport make some of the best hot hatches around at the moment.

[mgmrw]

5lab said:

renault did this with the r26-r. no-one bought it. I guess that's going to stop them doing it again

that had windows that wobbled in the wind though.

A bit extreme.

I'm saying keep the glass, keep the crumple-zone...... Just ditch the "luxury" items. So:

> basic ICE
> no Air con
> no ABS
> no curtain air bags
> no Passenger air bag
> lightweight seats
> sports springs
> lightweight alloys
> not overly lightened steering


that sort of thing

[Gad-Westy]

mrmr96 said:

mgmrw said:

Theoretically what's stopping mainstream manufacturers releasing "purists" editions like Lambo and Ferrari do?


I.e. Ford Fiest ST, with no abs, no air con, no leather seats (replace with lightweight ones), no big chunky interior. Just a stripped back, car.

Keep the essential mandatory stuff, but remove curtain airbags, air con, passenger airbag, and so on.


Or am I a million miles off the issues?

R26.R?

Yep, they're great but nobody buys them and they cost a fair bit to develop. That's the sad reality. Purists are in a tiny minority of car buyers.

[mgmrw]

Gad-Westy said:

Yep, they're great but nobody buys them and they cost a fair bit to develop. That's the sad reality. Purists are in a tiny minority of car buyers.

But that was too specific.... too hardcore.

Surely, removing ABS, removing TCS, removing ESP, removing super-light PAS, removing air con, climate control, 12cd changer and touchscreen sat-nav, along with panoramic retractable glass roof, etc saves money.

I.e. in effect, someone could wander into a dealer, BMW or Ford for example and choose either an 325 or Focus ST and spec it to have:

> lightweight seats.
> No sat nav
> no air con

blah blah. And get a good chassis, good brakes, the engine they want, and have a no frills, lightweight but reasonably practical car?

[TheEnd]

mgmrw said:

that had windows that wobbled in the wind though.

A bit extreme.

I'm saying keep the glass, keep the crumple-zone...... Just ditch the "luxury" items. So:

> basic ICE
> no Air con
> no ABS
> no curtain air bags
> no Passenger air bag
> lightweight seats
> sports springs
> lightweight alloys
> not overly lightened steering


that sort of thing

The PH mindset will say it's a great idea, but no one will buy them, so they don't make them.

[mgmrw]

TheEnd said:

The PH mindset will say it's a great idea, but no one will buy them, so they don't make them.

And this is why, even if funds allowed I won't be buying a new car.

At least with second-hand you can afford to junk stuff you don't want/need and not worry about it.

[Gad-Westy]

TheEnd said:

mgmrw said:

that had windows that wobbled in the wind though.

A bit extreme.

I'm saying keep the glass, keep the crumple-zone...... Just ditch the "luxury" items. So:

> basic ICE
> no Air con
> no ABS
> no curtain air bags
> no Passenger air bag
> lightweight seats
> sports springs
> lightweight alloys
> not overly lightened steering


that sort of thing

The PH mindset will say it's a great idea, but no one will buy them, so they don't make them.

I suppose the original Clio 172 Cup sold ok and was along these lines but... it was still significantly outsold by the much more expensive full fat model. So much so, that didn't Renault then change their approach and make cup packs optional rather than making a lightweight special.

Even the Elise/Exige has been sanitised over the years and has sold better as a result.

[veevee]

mgmrw said:

that's one. Suppose the "cup" spec clios?

But no-one else really does it do they?

Say a 2500cc engine 1 series, lightweight and with no fancy crap?

thing is, 95% of 1 series drivers buy it FOR the fancy crap. they probably dont even realise its a rear wheel drive, and im willing to bet at least 70% of all sold are 116 or 118s.

want a fast 1 series - 135, 1m. there you go.

there arent that many people bothered enough out there to make a stripped down car. i like driving and i wouldnt want a car with no ABS or CD player to make it lighter. not on an everyday car. if its only a toy, there are plenty of other options out there!

[TheEnd]

They can and will sell if they are made in limited numbers, as there always will be some people after that, but often they will need the extra sweetener of it being classed as a rare or special edition.

[mgmrw]

veevee said:

thing is, 95% of 1 series drivers buy it FOR the fancy crap. they probably dont even realise its a rear wheel drive, and im willing to bet at least 70% of all sold are 116 or 118s.

want a fast 1 series - 135, 1m. there you go.

there arent that many people bothered enough out there to make a stripped down car. i like driving and i wouldnt want a car with no ABS or CD player to make it lighter. not on an everyday car. if its only a toy, there are plenty of other options out there!

I see your point. But personally, if I was coughing up the cash for an M3, a Porsche, even a fast Ford or Renault........ Sat-Nav, touch screen crap, airbags all over, and shed-loads of cupholders and leather, including seats that weigh more than me (and I'm a fat phukka remember) are just not what you buy it for.

Want barge spec interiors, go buy an E/S class, or a 7series.

[Ecosseven]

veevee said:

mgmrw said:

that's one. Suppose the "cup" spec clios?

But no-one else really does it do they?

Say a 2500cc engine 1 series, lightweight and with no fancy crap?

thing is, 95% of 1 series drivers buy it FOR the fancy crap. they probably dont even realise its a rear wheel drive, and im willing to bet at least 70% of all sold are 116 or 118s.

want a fast 1 series - 135, 1m. there you go.

there arent that many people bothered enough out there to make a stripped down car. i like driving and i wouldnt want a car with no ABS or CD player to make it lighter. not on an everyday car. if its only a toy, there are plenty of other options out there!

I agree that people still want their toys and we its highly unlikely that a car without these will sell. What I was getting at in my original post was ways to make cars lighter that don't require people to make sacrificies in equipment levels. I've heard that BMW are looking at developing mass produced (and therefore relative cheap) carbon fibre shells.

[mgmrw]

Ecosseven said:

I agree that people still want their toys and we its highly unlikely that a car without these will sell. What I was getting at in my original post was ways to make cars lighter that don't require people to make sacrificies in equipment levels. I've heard that BMW are looking at developing mass produced (and therefore relative cheap) carbon fibre shells.

True but then you just know BMW or Audi would fk that up, by plonking 22inch "rims" on it...... a dashboard that could make NASA look low-tech........ seats that weigh more than a chesterfield sofa..... and enough NCAP relevant ste to outdo the whole of Renault.

Thus the lightweight car has just regained some 300KG of bulk that they've shaved off.