What car - already got a shortlist...

[paulmnz]

Ok, I have a criteria and a short-list... interested in the pros and cons and where I can find a good example.

Criteria:
- Occasional 4 seater, so 2+2's are ok
- £2k to £4k... less means more money to spend on the real toys
- Economy is unimportant, but road tax bracket is (so older is better)
- Presentable, sensible (will be used for work occasionally)
- Interesting (any of the following: good handling, good looking, convertible, lots of luxury, classic, RWD)
- Reliable (I will work on it myself, but I have enough 'project' cars)
- Good 'out of the box' for which of the 'interesting' reasons.. ie it already handles well, not after spending time/money on it

I already have a DC2 integra, an MX5 and a derv van so have a few bases already covered...

Short-list:

BMW M3 E36 convertible (3.0 5spd version)
Pros:
- it's an M3
- RWD
- Open top motoring, seems to be cheaper than the tin-top and I'm not fussed with the ultimate handling
Cons:
- could be a bit ropey at this price range
- expensive parts and insurance

BMW 325i or 328i E36 convertible (m-sport if I can find one with an LSD)
Pros:
- Very good value atm.
- Almost as much 'fun' as an M3 but cheaper to run
- RWD
- lots of choice
Cons:
- would I be constantly thinking 'should have got an M3'?
- Harder to find an LSD/manual combination

Audi TT 180 (more reliable than the 225?)
Pros:
- A lot of car for the money
- Nice interior and good boot
- Golf in drag? other than 'known' issues with dash and coil packs seem to be reliable
Cons:
- handling is ahem... 'front-heavy'

Lexus LS400
Pros:
- Dead cheap
- Reliable
- Lots and lots of toys
- Excellent stereo system
Cons:
- dull to drive?
- old man image

Nissan 200SX
Pros:
- RWD, turbo fun
- mechanically pretty straight forward
Cons:
- JDM drift king image
- Might be inclined to turn into a project car

Volvo V50/V70 loaded with toys
Pros:
- had one as a rental a few years back - most comfortable car ever
- pop-up dashboard TV is a great party trick
- Low profile for making progress
Cons:
- old man image
- maybe not quite 'interesting' enough

Porsche 944 Turbo/S2 Convertible or coupe
Pros:
- Good steer (driven S2 coupe)
- Plenty about with huge miles so reliable
Cons:
- starting to get a little 'vintage' now
- slightly dodgy 'cheap Porsche' image?
- Occasionally can cause big-bill syndrome for silly things

Anything I've missed? which of the above is likely to give the best combination of trouble-free motoring and fun?

[marcosgt]

Out of those, only the Porsche piques my interest at all.

What about a proper RWD Alfa GTV?

M.

[Tinod]

I have an E36 328i 1999 Cab non lsd but manual with the throttle body conversion. Bought last year for £3.2k and haven't looked back it doesn't have any of the m-tec kit which I think makes it look slightly more 'classic'. Is a great car, was a downgrade from my Chim but still can enjoy 80% of open top motoring and engine still has a pretty throaty roar though with lots of practicality I thought about changing for an S4 cabriolet lately but have really fallen for this one!

[alfa pint]

I'd be terrified of owning an M3 at that price - that's got to cost a couple of grand a year to keep on the road.

I quite like the porsche options, if you can find a decent one.

[paulmnz]

Tinod said:

I have an E36 328i 1999 Cab non lsd but manual with the throttle body conversion. Bought last year for £3.2k and haven't looked back it doesn't have any of the m-tec kit which I think makes it look slightly more 'classic'. Is a great car, was a downgrade from my Chim but still can enjoy 80% of open top motoring and engine still has a pretty throaty roar though with lots of practicality I thought about changing for an S4 cabriolet lately but have really fallen for this one!

I'm leaning towards one of these - considered the Audi convertibles, but the BM's I think look better and are RWD.

I understand the older E36s (pre 96) do not have traction control and with the 'cold weather' pack get an LSD, so I might try to find one of them. Not fussed about the rest of M parts other than the LSD - have enough ridiculous spoilers and suspension on the DC2 ;-)

seems £2-£3k would buy a pretty decent one.

Do you ever regret not getting an M3 though?

[paulmnz]

marcosgt said:

Out of those, only the Porsche piques my interest at all.

What about a proper RWD Alfa GTV?

M.

I presume you must mean the old one?

I know its a cliche, but old Alfa = reliable?

and would you get one for £2-£4k?

Also considered the Alfa GT - it's great looking and has a decent interior... V6's are likely to be cheap, but I had a mate with a turbo derv one and he poured a fortune into it as the engine had a lot of problems (injectors etc).

[paulmnz]

alfa pint said:

I'd be terrified of owning an M3 at that price - that's got to cost a couple of grand a year to keep on the road.

I quite like the porsche options, if you can find a decent one.

I've driven 944's fairly extensively... I do wonder if they are getting a bit dated... I think the 986's look good, but too expensive and basically the same car under the updated skin.

The M3 option is probably a money pit, but part of me is still tempted... could always buy a couple of them and use one for bits.

I figure the longer they linger at £4k the worse they will get with neglect from owners that can't afford to run them... I'm looking for the elusive 'owned for 10 years' person thats only changed it for a new one I guess!

[marcosgt]

paulmnz said:

marcosgt said:

Out of those, only the Porsche piques my interest at all.

What about a proper RWD Alfa GTV?

M.

I presume you must mean the old one?

I know its a cliche, but old Alfa = reliable?

and would you get one for £2-£4k?

Also considered the Alfa GT - it's great looking and has a decent interior... V6's are likely to be cheap, but I had a mate with a turbo derv one and he poured a fortune into it as the engine had a lot of problems (injectors etc).

No idea about reliability (probably not as bad as you'd imagine) or cost - You asked for suggestions, I asssumed you'd do the research

A colleague has the more recent GTV and it's a nice car (his especially), but hardly a paragon of reliability. I never liked the GT myself, just looked like an uglier, more cramped, more expensive 156 to me but heh ho.

I can't see the E36 M3 ever being a great choice. It didn't ever look that good to me when new and it very quickly fell into the Chav-car market, so finding a decent one will be hard (And M3's need looking after).

Get the 944.

M

[300bhp/ton]

paulmnz said:

Ok, I have a criteria and a short-list... interested in the pros and cons and where I can find a good example.

Criteria:
- Occasional 4 seater, so 2+2's are ok
- £2k to £4k... less means more money to spend on the real toys
- Economy is unimportant, but road tax bracket is (so older is better)
- Presentable, sensible (will be used for work occasionally)
- Interesting (any of the following: good handling, good looking, convertible, lots of luxury, classic, RWD)
- Reliable (I will work on it myself, but I have enough 'project' cars)
- Good 'out of the box' for which of the 'interesting' reasons.. ie it already handles well, not after spending time/money on it

I already have a DC2 integra, an MX5 and a derv van so have a few bases already covered...

Short-list:

BMW M3 E36 convertible (3.0 5spd version)
Pros:
- it's an M3
- RWD
- Open top motoring, seems to be cheaper than the tin-top and I'm not fussed with the ultimate handling
Cons:
- could be a bit ropey at this price range
- expensive parts and insurance

BMW 325i or 328i E36 convertible (m-sport if I can find one with an LSD)
Pros:
- Very good value atm.
- Almost as much 'fun' as an M3 but cheaper to run
- RWD
- lots of choice
Cons:
- would I be constantly thinking 'should have got an M3'?
- Harder to find an LSD/manual combination

Audi TT 180 (more reliable than the 225?)
Pros:
- A lot of car for the money
- Nice interior and good boot
- Golf in drag? other than 'known' issues with dash and coil packs seem to be reliable
Cons:
- handling is ahem... 'front-heavy'

Lexus LS400
Pros:
- Dead cheap
- Reliable
- Lots and lots of toys
- Excellent stereo system
Cons:
- dull to drive?
- old man image

Nissan 200SX
Pros:
- RWD, turbo fun
- mechanically pretty straight forward
Cons:
- JDM drift king image
- Might be inclined to turn into a project car

Volvo V50/V70 loaded with toys
Pros:
- had one as a rental a few years back - most comfortable car ever
- pop-up dashboard TV is a great party trick
- Low profile for making progress
Cons:
- old man image
- maybe not quite 'interesting' enough

Porsche 944 Turbo/S2 Convertible or coupe
Pros:
- Good steer (driven S2 coupe)
- Plenty about with huge miles so reliable
Cons:
- starting to get a little 'vintage' now
- slightly dodgy 'cheap Porsche' image?
- Occasionally can cause big-bill syndrome for silly things

Anything I've missed? which of the above is likely to give the best combination of trouble-free motoring and fun?

I think the main think here is to narrow down when you'll use it.

As in, what's it for, why will you drive it?


As you have economy ticked, fast chuckable usable ticked, and soft top ticked.

The I'd have thought you'd be wanting either:

-big ass 4x4
-luxury
-classic
-big power
-something show worthy


I'd have thought a 944 or 200SX would step on the toes of the MX and DC2 too much. Unless you have very specific uses for them all.

[paulmnz]

300bhp/ton said:

I think the main think here is to narrow down when you'll use it.

As in, what's it for, why will you drive it?


As you have economy ticked, fast chuckable usable ticked, and soft top ticked.

The I'd have thought you'd be wanting either:

-big ass 4x4
-luxury
-classic
-big power
-something show worthy


I'd have thought a 944 or 200SX would step on the toes of the MX and DC2 too much. Unless you have very specific uses for them all.

Good question...

it's mostly for moving about friends, relatives and work colleagues.. something not too embarrassing to park outside a decent hotel, comfortable for long distances, weekends away which are not car-related - something that won't offend the kind of people that aren't into cars and usually label my cars 'boy racer' 'chavy' 'loud' 'stupid' 'hard to get into' 'hard to drive' 'impractical' 'uncomfortable' 'ridiculous' etc. Other than the van (HDI Berlingo) - which everyone thinks is great, expect its a van and only has one passenger seat!

Basically, there are days I do wake up and think 'I wish I had a normal car' but I'm not quite ready to die inside and buy a sensible silver golf...

Preferably something that I would still look forward to driving. 4x4s I think are just too much metal - I don't need the space, don't need the 4x4 part, I want something modern and comfortable which usually means an X5 etc which is likely to be a money pit.

Classic, again, as much as I'd like to go down that route, it must not be a 'project' car and a £2-4k classic is very likely to be that... I'd probably go for a BMW 635iCS if I was going down that road.

Big power? well, nice to have, but not really necessary...

the 328i does seem to be a good combo of fun and practical... I like the looks and interior of the TT. lexus still has an appeal as it should be pretty much trouble free and the best motorway car of the lot. The 944 is starting to be a bit like the 924 owner-stereotype, driven by weird people that wear Porsche jackets and hats and have a large Porsche keyring and a lot of facial hair :-) Non-car people seem to be offended by them too...

[300bhp/ton]

paulmnz said:

Good question...

it's mostly for moving about friends, relatives and work colleagues.. something not too embarrassing to park outside a decent hotel, comfortable for long distances, weekends away which are not car-related - something that won't offend the kind of people that aren't into cars and usually label my cars 'boy racer' 'chavy' 'loud' 'stupid' 'hard to get into' 'hard to drive' 'impractical' 'uncomfortable' 'ridiculous' etc. Other than the van (HDI Berlingo) - which everyone thinks is great, expect its a van and only has one passenger seat!

Basically, there are days I do wake up and think 'I wish I had a normal car' but I'm not quite ready to die inside and buy a sensible silver golf...

Preferably something that I would still look forward to driving. 4x4s I think are just too much metal - I don't need the space, don't need the 4x4 part, I want something modern and comfortable which usually means an X5 etc which is likely to be a money pit.

Classic, again, as much as I'd like to go down that route, it must not be a 'project' car and a £2-4k classic is very likely to be that... I'd probably go for a BMW 635iCS if I was going down that road.

Big power? well, nice to have, but not really necessary...

the 328i does seem to be a good combo of fun and practical... I like the looks and interior of the TT. lexus still has an appeal as it should be pretty much trouble free and the best motorway car of the lot. The 944 is starting to be a bit like the 924 owner-stereotype, driven by weird people that wear Porsche jackets and hats and have a large Porsche keyring and a lot of facial hair :-) Non-car people seem to be offended by them too...

I suspect most of the coupes are going to be too similar to what you already have. Even an Audi TT. I mean when would you use it when you wouldn't take the DC2? If if you did, would you then stop using the ITR??


From what you say, I reckon a luxo barge of some description might be worth a look. Highly comfy, can still be interesting, relaxing more than fun, but certainly not boring to drive. Would look good outside a hotel, ideal for weekends away and plenty of seats and a big boot to carry people and luggage.


LS400 is a strong contender, although personally I think these look better and are faster and rarer.



Sold in RHD guise from 98-02 from selected Vauxhall (aka GM) dealers.

It's a Cadillac STS Seville.

4.6 DOHC Northstar V8 with 100,000 major service intervals. It can even run all day in the desert without any water by shutting down 4 cylinders and swapping over when temps rise.

Rated by a couple of UK mags as more comfy and easy to push along at high speed than the equivalent Audi or BMW.

Some have adaptive seating so the front seats constantly adjust around you for extra comfort and latter models had adjustable magnetic shocks.



Others I'd look at for this money might include:

-Jaguar S-Type, either a V8 or a V6 if you want a manual.
-Lexus/Toyota Soarer. An LS400 but in a coupe body, either V8 or 2.5TT six.
-Ford Thunderbird 93-97 model (FN12 variant). Known in the US as a personal luxury vehicle. It's a large 4 seater coupe, and that's 4 full size seats. Available with a coupe of V8's or the top of the line 3.8 supercharged V6.

[BoRED S2upid]

How close to £2k can one buy a TT for now?

[Challo]

Been looking a TT's and nothing around the 2k mark. Most are 3.5k and some are looking ropey and mostly the 180 variety.

Being drawn to the E36 convertible...with some really nice motors around the 2-3k price range. E46's convertibles are dropping under the 4k mark and look half decent.

[paulmnz]

300bhp/ton said:

I suspect most of the coupes are going to be too similar to what you already have. Even an Audi TT. I mean when would you use it when you wouldn't take the DC2? If if you did, would you then stop using the ITR??


From what you say, I reckon a luxo barge of some description might be worth a look. Highly comfy, can still be interesting, relaxing more than fun, but certainly not boring to drive. Would look good outside a hotel, ideal for weekends away and plenty of seats and a big boot to carry people and luggage.


LS400 is a strong contender, although personally I think these look better and are faster and rarer.

Sold in RHD guise from 98-02 from selected Vauxhall (aka GM) dealers.

It's a Cadillac STS Seville.

4.6 DOHC Northstar V8 with 100,000 major service intervals. It can even run all day in the desert without any water by shutting down 4 cylinders and swapping over when temps rise.

Rated by a couple of UK mags as more comfy and easy to push along at high speed than the equivalent Audi or BMW.

Some have adaptive seating so the front seats constantly adjust around you for extra comfort and latter models had adjustable magnetic shocks.



Others I'd look at for this money might include:

-Jaguar S-Type, either a V8 or a V6 if you want a manual.
-Lexus/Toyota Soarer. An LS400 but in a coupe body, either V8 or 2.5TT six.
-Ford Thunderbird 93-97 model (FN12 variant). Known in the US as a personal luxury vehicle. It's a large 4 seater coupe, and that's 4 full size seats. Available with a coupe of V8's or the top of the line 3.8 supercharged V6.

The DC2 has exhaust/suspension/engine work, Recaro SPGs, a half-cage (so no rear seats) and most of the rear interior out... so most coupes with an interior would be a fairly different proposition :-)

is the caddy likely to be in the price range? I'm not sure I'd want to push £4k for one... experience I've had with US barges is that they are actually not that comfortable - the suspension is to soft and the seats un-supportive...

"Some have adaptive seating so the front seats constantly adjust around you for extra comfort and latter models had adjustable magnetic shocks." this is raising the when broken = £££ alarm bells :-P

the S-type could be interesting, but slightly confusing imagine - partly old man, partly getho gangster around where I live (central London).

Looked at the Soarers - I dont think they have dated as well as the LS400, but maybe in the right colour combination it might look ok.

The thunderbird is just ugly :-)

Edited by paulmnz on Tuesday 25th October 12:39

[5lab]

renault avantime? would tick all your boxes, and is certainly 'wierd' enough quiet, comfy cruiser, makes a nice noise (in v6 form), drops all the windows and the massive roof to become almost a convertible, good comfort for carrying four..

out of your list I'd have a 944 but not if i've already got an integra and an mx5 - it's just too similar

Edited by 5lab on Tuesday 25th October 12:33

Edited by 5lab on Tuesday 25th October 12:34

[paulmnz]

Challo said:

Been looking a TT's and nothing around the 2k mark. Most are 3.5k and some are looking ropey and mostly the 180 variety.

Being drawn to the E36 convertible...with some really nice motors around the 2-3k price range. E46's convertibles are dropping under the 4k mark and look half decent.

the E36's certainly look like very good value for money.

unless your worried about performance, the 180 TT's I think might be a better buy at this price range... the boy racers seem to avoid them, so you get plenty of '1 owner' and older/more sensible people selling them (from what I've seen). I've also heard they are more reliable than the 225.. so either a 180 or a V6 would be my choice, the V6 will be more than £4k though. I've seen a few decent looking ones around £3k, depends if your mileage conscious - I'm happy to buy an ex-motorway hack with big miles if they look mechanically sound - my van has 170,000 miles on it and drives perfectly despite being french ;-)

I'm definitely leaning towards a 328 or 325 though... £2-3k would buy a very good one.

[paulmnz]

5lab said:

renault avantime? would tick all your boxes, and is certainly 'wierd' enough quiet, comfy cruiser, makes a nice noise (in v6 form), drops all the windows and the massive roof to become almost a convertible, good comfort for carrying four..

Edited by 5lab on Tuesday 25th October 12:33

There is a guy near where I live who has one of those in a light metallic blue which I think the car suits... I do wonder if I could pull it off as well as he does though - he's immaculately dressed in a suit any time I've seen him driving it and does have a 'continental' look about him.

I can't decide if the styling is genius or just plain ugly.. strange!

a sorted Fiat Coupe might worth adding to the short list... if there are any left....

[Chris71]

I've just bought my second front-engined Porsche and I'd highly recommend one.

If you have concerns about image you wouldn't buy any of those cars. The 'Volkswagen van-based' 944 is no worse than the 'chavvy/banzai' 200SX or Integra, the 'wannabe drug dealer' BMWs, the 'yuppie' TT or the 'old man' Lexus.

My current daily driver is a 924, but I've driven all of the naturally aspirated front engined Porsches. The thing I love about them is the way they combine the sensible and the fun. They do all the boring 'everyday car' stuff so well and yet they're a proper classic coupe at the same time. Some thoughts:

• Back seats are for kids only really (although it is just about possible to get adults in there for a short trip back from the pub, given a spot of contortion)
• Boot is really very good, particularly with the rear seats down
• All are supremely well balanced and corner beautifully
• Parts prices aren't as bad as you might expect and there are decent independent garages all over the place
• Engines are all a tiny bit muted - a BMW six pot definitely sounds nicer
• All feel slower than they are - there's no VTEC Yo! moment with any of them
• Don't even consider a 2-litre 924 if you're worried about straight line performance. The 924S is effectively a full-blown 944 in drag, however, so that's well worth looking into (it's actually slightly faster than the 8-valve 944). The S2 is a big step up from the normal 8-valve 944 and 924S, but may be out of budget for a good one and the 944S has a mixed reputation - many people argue it has the added complexity of the S2 with little real-world benefit over the standard 944
• They're fundamentally tough cars, but as with all things condition is really important. Buy one that's baggy or has a major rust problem and you'll spend the rest of your life cursing it. Just like you would with a BMW or anything else for that matter.

It depends what you want. I always used to find these quiet, refined Porsches a bit staid - a bit too sensible for a sports car - but live with one for a bit and that usability really gets under your skin.

Edited by Chris71 on Tuesday 25th October 12:48

[BertieWooster]

I know this isn't on your list but what about something like a mid-90s Mercedes E class coupe? You can pick them up for a couple of grand and (in my opinion) they look fantastic.

Bertie W

[5lab]

what about something just 'rapid' (300bhp+)?

300zx, late 90s camaro, xkr, etc. Not going to set the world on fire from a handling perspective, but will give you a 'shove in the back' like nothing else you own