No rules - How easily/cheaply F1 speed?

[ringerz]

(Not sure if this is one for General Motorsport, but anyways..)

Something got me thinking the other day - Formula One regulations are constantly being amended in order to, amongst other things, contain the speeds of the cars. Were it not for this the speeds of the cars would be far far higher than they are currently. I have read interviews with designers saying that with complete freedom of the aerodynamics the cars would be 20+ seconds a lap faster around a place such as Silverstone (discounting the fact that a driver has to drive the thing) and that is before taking into other posibilities - 4 wheel drive, Active Ride, CVT boxes, forced induction, increased engine size, 6 wheels - etc

My question to folks more knowledgeable than I isn't how fast a car could be made, but rather how easily/cheaply could someone produce a car which goes as fast around a circuit as a modern day F1 car - if it didn't have to conform to a rule book of any sort.

[kambites]

Interesting question. I wonder how far you'd get taking a radical, dropping the ride height and adding ground effect skirts and sticking a ~2000bhp turbocharged V8 in the back?

[robmlufc]

The Red Bull X2010 that Newey designed for Gran Turismo seems pretty rapid. It was designed to go as quick as possible round a track with no rules or regulations. 1500bhp, 290mph and 8G round the twisty bits.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Bull_X2010

Edited by robmlufc on Thursday 19th January 11:42

[juansolo]

kambites said:

Interesting question. I wonder how far you'd get taking a radical, dropping the ride height and adding ground effect skirts and sticking a ~2000bhp turbocharged V8 in the back?

Probably as far as the first corner... if you were lucky

[sherbert90]

juansolo said:

Probably as far as the first corner... if you were lucky

I don't even think it would make that!

[GroundEffect]

It depends what you're defining F1 speed as. Is it purely acceleration/braking or is it the whole shabang around a lap?

If you want the proper lap speeds, at Silverstone say, you're going to have to spend a lot. The thing with current F1 cars is that there are clear ways to up their performance without too much extra cost:

• Increase maximum width from the limited 1800mm to the old 2150mm we had decades gone by - More Grip
• Increase size of rear wing and diffuser dramatically - More Grip
• Reintroduce full-length venturis
• Use a larger engine, possibly turbo-charged, that would produce ~800BHP with ease - Similar straight-line performance
• Remove limit on minimum weight
• Tyres - Big big deal here

You could create a monocoque chassis with the dimension changes above without too much trouble. The problem is getting it all working together. F1 cars are run by a team of 50 engineers all experts in their field which melds together for a completely honed car.

Look at CART cars from the late 1990s. They had more power than F1 cars of the time (circa 950BHP) but lapped many seconds slower, despite having more relaxed aero regs. Simply put, F1 cars are the ultimate of what those regulations allow therefore you'd need to go WAY beyond them to get similar.

Also a note on the tyres: if you could get access to F1 rubber it'd make your job much easier.

[ringerz]

Interesting replies.

Love the idea of a 2000bhp radical:-)

With regard to the challenge - yes it would be comparable speed around a full lap, say for example Silverstone.

Like the point about sorting the monocoque - perhaps purchasing a "second hand" car from the 90s/00s and changing it - although I think this is against the rules of my question as it would then be quicker than an F1 car:-)

What about a conversion on a F3000/Indycar...? Hmmmm

[Meoricin]

robmlufc said:

The Red Bull X2010 that Newey designed for Gran Turismo seems pretty rapid. It was designed to go as quick as possible round a track with no rules or regulations. 1500bhp, 290mph and 8G round the twisty bits.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Bull_X2010

Edited by robmlufc on Thursday 19th January 11:42

Given that it was a purely theoretical exercise though, the question arises as to whether it would actually be possible to build, or whether he pushed the boundary a bit on that.

No question that it's beyond human capabilities as they are at the moment though, even if it is possible to build. Would need loads of restraints/reinforcements to try to counter the Gs in the corners, under braking etc.

[bishbash]

Cheating a little, but the Lotus T125 exos would probably be as close as your going to get, but I think you're going to need around a million quid.
http://www.lotuscars.com/motorsport/en/lotus-t125-...

[ringerz]

Cheating a little, and dare I say, quite a bit slower than an F1 car (anyone know comparitive laptimes?)

[PhillipM]

Personally, I reckon 200k with no rules would get you close to current F1 performance, but exponential costs from there for simulation + research time it would needs.

[ringerz]

Would love to see what the solution would look like

[CO2000]

Throw 200k to one of these & you'd be there or there abouts (Brakes would be their weak point + too much aero)

http://www.pilbeamracing.co.uk/speed_hillclimb.htm...
or
http://www.gould-racing.co.uk/projects/gr55B.html
or
http://www.djracecars.com/dj-firehawks.asp

Then when you have done your lap take it to Pikes Peak & have a crack there

[ringerz]

I remember seeing the Gould at goodwood one year, couldn't believe how quick it looked.

On a slightly related note, anyone ever heard of a "upgraded" F1 car - one that has been sold on for example, only the new owner has stuck a more powerful motor in it. I guess a little like the Rallycross guys have done in the past with ex-WRC cars.