What's your transmission of choice?
Discussion
I'm a bit split on this one. I have never owned an automatic but have driven a few. I would be quite happy to drive an automatic as my daily driver (after all who wants to operate a clutch and shift gears manually in traffic). An automatic Mercedes, Volvo or Jaguar would seem entirely appropriate (although classic E-Types, MkII Jaguars were manual). Modern diesels and automatic gearboxes seems like a good pairing and personally most bread-and-butter stuff bigger than say a Golf, I would probably choose an automatic if I had the choice. In my opinion, anything low powered (less than 1.6 litres NA for example) is unsuitable for an automatic gearbox. In my experience anything that falls into this criteria has been awful to drive.
However, for fun, I would still choose manual every time for ultimate control and involvement. It concerns me that the market seems to be shying away from manual gearboxes in performance cars. I believe that you can no longer buy a manual Ferrari or Lammborgini. Although in many ways, the 458 Italia may be the best Ferrari ever and I can understand that with that kind of power, it may be sensible to keep both hands on the wheel, it's kind of sad that the classic open manual gate has been consigned to the history books. If you believe the reviews then these latest-generation gearboxes although impressive, are often the only chink in the armour of potentially a 10/10 car (and very expensive to fix if they go wrong in the long-term). Some examples that spring to mind are the Mercedes-Benz SLS, E60 M5 and E46 M3 CSL. In many ways, an M3 CSL would be everything that I want in a car (subtle and as fast and special as a 911 but less ubiquitous) but the gearbox and granted the price, still nags me. I don't care if the gearbox changes gear 0.2 seconds quicker than I do, I just want to be totally involved and in control of the driving process. It baffles me that BMW offered a manual option on the M5 in the US when 90% of cars in the USA are automatic anyway. I'm pleased that BMW went manual on the 1M and you can still buy a manual M3 but I'm sure the next M3 will be auto only.
My only extended experience of modern automatic gearboxes is the DSG box as fitted to VW Group cars. Undeniably an impressive piece of engineering and excellent and smooth when fitted to a TDI Golf but in my opinion ruined the GTI. In manual form, turbo lag is virtually imperceptible in this car but I thought the DSG gearbox really highlighted the turbo lag and made it difficult to drive smoothly. Also, contrary to their claims, it was less economical than the manual. I did try using the paddles but ultimately the car will override you and it feels just a little bit too Playstation for my liking. If you want to hold onto the gears, the Sport mode will do that anyway! I also tried this gearbox in an R32 Golf which worked much better, probably due to the more linear power delivery. I can see why gearboxes like this are used in racing to shave lap times but pretty pointless on a road car.
So you can't get an Italian sports car with a manual box, so the only real options if you want a manual sports car/performance car is a Porsche, Aston Martin, Lotus (or Audi surprisingly) but for how much longer? Likewise, hot hatches are now succumbing to automated gearboxes. Would a manual Fabia vRS or Polo GTI not be more fun and crucually cheaper! On paper, the Audi RS3 is the ultimate hot hatch and a car that would greatly appeal to me (despite the crazy price) if it were available as a manual. The similarly-engined TT RS is available with a manual gearbox and by all accounts this is the better and cheaper option.
So are we witnessing the death of the manual gearbox in performance cars and do you think this is a good or bad thing? What is your preference or is it application dependent?
However, for fun, I would still choose manual every time for ultimate control and involvement. It concerns me that the market seems to be shying away from manual gearboxes in performance cars. I believe that you can no longer buy a manual Ferrari or Lammborgini. Although in many ways, the 458 Italia may be the best Ferrari ever and I can understand that with that kind of power, it may be sensible to keep both hands on the wheel, it's kind of sad that the classic open manual gate has been consigned to the history books. If you believe the reviews then these latest-generation gearboxes although impressive, are often the only chink in the armour of potentially a 10/10 car (and very expensive to fix if they go wrong in the long-term). Some examples that spring to mind are the Mercedes-Benz SLS, E60 M5 and E46 M3 CSL. In many ways, an M3 CSL would be everything that I want in a car (subtle and as fast and special as a 911 but less ubiquitous) but the gearbox and granted the price, still nags me. I don't care if the gearbox changes gear 0.2 seconds quicker than I do, I just want to be totally involved and in control of the driving process. It baffles me that BMW offered a manual option on the M5 in the US when 90% of cars in the USA are automatic anyway. I'm pleased that BMW went manual on the 1M and you can still buy a manual M3 but I'm sure the next M3 will be auto only.
My only extended experience of modern automatic gearboxes is the DSG box as fitted to VW Group cars. Undeniably an impressive piece of engineering and excellent and smooth when fitted to a TDI Golf but in my opinion ruined the GTI. In manual form, turbo lag is virtually imperceptible in this car but I thought the DSG gearbox really highlighted the turbo lag and made it difficult to drive smoothly. Also, contrary to their claims, it was less economical than the manual. I did try using the paddles but ultimately the car will override you and it feels just a little bit too Playstation for my liking. If you want to hold onto the gears, the Sport mode will do that anyway! I also tried this gearbox in an R32 Golf which worked much better, probably due to the more linear power delivery. I can see why gearboxes like this are used in racing to shave lap times but pretty pointless on a road car.
So you can't get an Italian sports car with a manual box, so the only real options if you want a manual sports car/performance car is a Porsche, Aston Martin, Lotus (or Audi surprisingly) but for how much longer? Likewise, hot hatches are now succumbing to automated gearboxes. Would a manual Fabia vRS or Polo GTI not be more fun and crucually cheaper! On paper, the Audi RS3 is the ultimate hot hatch and a car that would greatly appeal to me (despite the crazy price) if it were available as a manual. The similarly-engined TT RS is available with a manual gearbox and by all accounts this is the better and cheaper option.
So are we witnessing the death of the manual gearbox in performance cars and do you think this is a good or bad thing? What is your preference or is it application dependent?
I like driving a manual car. I have never driven an auto of paddleshift but I can see the appeal, especially of an auto when sitting in traffic. Paddleshift transmissions, I hate the thought of. The cars these are fitted to are meant to be drivers cars, I would feel that I am not properly driving the car if I only tell it when to change gear.
Apparently (Clarkson quote coming up) paddleshifts are crap and jerky on town and only really work on the track. What's the point in that?
Apparently (Clarkson quote coming up) paddleshifts are crap and jerky on town and only really work on the track. What's the point in that?
I had never driven an auto in 19 years of driving until last month, until I picked up my new car E90 3 series.
I think that the modent auto box in it is a perfect compromise,
-full slush for round town
-Sport for giving it some beans
-Manual mode, for manual mode. I know its not perfect and will change down if you dont get the revs right but other than that its pretty good.
Definately an auto convert.
I think that the modent auto box in it is a perfect compromise,
-full slush for round town
-Sport for giving it some beans
-Manual mode, for manual mode. I know its not perfect and will change down if you dont get the revs right but other than that its pretty good.
Definately an auto convert.
white_goodman said:
Some examples that spring to mind are the Mercedes-Benz SLS, E60 M5 and E46 M3 CSL. In many ways, an M3 CSL would be everything that I want in a car (subtle and as fast and special as a 911 but less ubiquitous) but the gearbox and granted the price, still nags me. I don't care if the gearbox changes gear 0.2 seconds quicker than I do, I just want to be totally involved and in control of the driving process.
My only extended experience of modern automatic gearboxes is the DSG box as fitted to VW Group cars. Undeniably an impressive piece of engineering and excellent and smooth when fitted to a TDI Golf but in my opinion ruined the GTI. In manual form, turbo lag is virtually imperceptible in this car but I thought the DSG gearbox really highlighted the turbo lag and made it difficult to drive smoothly. Also, contrary to their claims, it was less economical than the manual. I did try using the paddles but ultimately the car will override you and it feels just a little bit too Playstation for my liking. If you want to hold onto the gears, the Sport mode will do that anyway! I also tried this gearbox in an R32 Golf which worked much better, probably due to the more linear power delivery. I can see why gearboxes like this are used in racing to shave lap times but pretty pointless on a road car.
I am definitely a convert. Your examples are of very good cars with particularly rubbish single clutch paddle shifts (The one in the M5 pretty much ruins it for me) The new DCT boxes in M3 and M5 are by all accounts brilliant.My only extended experience of modern automatic gearboxes is the DSG box as fitted to VW Group cars. Undeniably an impressive piece of engineering and excellent and smooth when fitted to a TDI Golf but in my opinion ruined the GTI. In manual form, turbo lag is virtually imperceptible in this car but I thought the DSG gearbox really highlighted the turbo lag and made it difficult to drive smoothly. Also, contrary to their claims, it was less economical than the manual. I did try using the paddles but ultimately the car will override you and it feels just a little bit too Playstation for my liking. If you want to hold onto the gears, the Sport mode will do that anyway! I also tried this gearbox in an R32 Golf which worked much better, probably due to the more linear power delivery. I can see why gearboxes like this are used in racing to shave lap times but pretty pointless on a road car.
The single clutch paddle shift in the Scuderia is fantastic and as slick and involving as you would want. Maybe better than the newer 458s DCT box because of the slight imperfection.The effect of the disengage/re-engage on full bore upshifts is spectacular.
I had a Scirocco R with the VAG DCT and it was effective and sterile and did not add anything other than speed to the car IMO.
Contrast that with the Nissan GTR which can be a grumpy moody thing at parking speeds but is somehow the most engaging transmission you could imagine when you're going for it. Instant, eager changes up and down, perfect rev matching and never caught out, with a tactile feeling of the mechanical stuff happening that the VAG boxes completely lack.
A good DCT box allows you to have greater control, not less, allowing concentration on placement, line and smoothness, judging the available grip, without the awkwardness of grabbing gears with one hand on the wheel.
I understand why getting a gearchange "right" is so pleasurable but its time is up.Its like synchromesh replacing double de-clutching, its inevitable.
E30Addict said:
George H said:
I will be glad to see the manual box go.
Really? IMO only a manual gearbox can give you the satisfaction of getting the changes just right when driving quickly, and makes the driver a key component in the driving experience.Read a few posts about the new 'clutchless manuals'. I know they are probably quicker than manual and allow you to keep both hands on the wheel. But this would only be of consequence to me driving at 10/10ths. And even then, I would only need the extra pace if I were competiting and every split-second counts.
As it stands, I don't drive at 10/10ths, either on the road or on track days. The whole process involved in a manual gearchange is key to enjoying the driving experience IME. It's why I'll proabaly never sell the Caterham.
Edited by Matt UK on Tuesday 14th February 14:09
I like manuals on most cars, apart from my missus' volvo which has a weary gear selector and makes trying to find reverse very painful and infuriating. My next car is likely to be a Jag and will therefore be an auto, which suits the car, suits the engine and won't be a pain because of the engine size. I agree with the other posts that a small engined auto is just annoyingly s
te (drove my gran's suzuki midget thing with a 3 speed auto and owned a rover 216 auto for a bit as a stter).
Yet to drive a car with a PDK box, so can't comment. I find it interesting though that Maserati got rid of the tiptronic type box in the quattroporte and reverted to an auto with paddles because of the jerky shifts in what is supposed to be a proper luxury car.
te (drove my gran's suzuki midget thing with a 3 speed auto and owned a rover 216 auto for a bit as a stter).Yet to drive a car with a PDK box, so can't comment. I find it interesting though that Maserati got rid of the tiptronic type box in the quattroporte and reverted to an auto with paddles because of the jerky shifts in what is supposed to be a proper luxury car.
alfa pint said:
I like manuals on most cars, apart from my missus' volvo which has a weary gear selector and makes trying to find reverse very painful and infuriating. My next car is likely to be a Jag and will therefore be an auto, which suits the car, suits the engine and won't be a pain because of the engine size. I agree with the other posts that a small engined auto is just annoyingly ste (drove my gran's suzuki midget thing with a 3 speed auto and owned a rover 216 auto for a bit as a stter).
Yet to drive a car with a PDK box, so can't comment. I find it interesting though that Maserati got rid of the tiptronic type box in the quattroporte and reverted to an auto with paddles because of the jerky shifts in what is supposed to be a proper luxury car.
They did indeed but thats because the original box was an earlier version of the Ferrari single clutch paddle shift. A box that got better and faster with each application , ultimately ending with the Scuderia/16M where its genuinely excellent.It was always the wrong transmission for a big luxury car as is the SMG 7 speed in the M5.te (drove my gran's suzuki midget thing with a 3 speed auto and owned a rover 216 auto for a bit as a stter).Yet to drive a car with a PDK box, so can't comment. I find it interesting though that Maserati got rid of the tiptronic type box in the quattroporte and reverted to an auto with paddles because of the jerky shifts in what is supposed to be a proper luxury car.
Double clutch boxes are inherently smoother anyway and do a very good job of imitating a torque converter auto. Arguably the box in the latest Ferraris 458 and California would be fine. But the Quattroporte is a big luxo barge and a good modern torque converter auto is much more suited to a car that will rarely be operated as a manual.
Auto slush box, DSG at a push. Works great on the Mustang for general plodding around, fast driving or racing. After test drving and then owning for over 2 1/2 years I can no longer see the point in a manual gearbox when auto's are so damn good, manuals add nothing to the driving experience for me. However, if I were to take my test again I would still do it in a manual car, just for the extra flexibility.
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