New v Old - battle on the B roads!
Discussion
This thread follows thoughts expresse by me on "bring back ride quality" and the Suzuki Swift owning chap who upset Fiat Abarth owners by suggesting his car could keep up on an A Road.... Basically, could an old school performance car, i.e. a Clio Williams keep up with a modern performance car on a typical tight, poorly surfaced british backroad. I'm thinking that the better ride quality and more compact size of the 'olden would compensate for the greater grip and power of the 'new un. Tbh, most moderns are just too wide to really let off the leash on a back road that isnt closed off like it is to motoring journalists..my old cinquecento sporting is still the fastest car Ive owned for back road peddalling and it had just the 54 horses!!
Any thoughts on this..?
Any thoughts on this..?
Dave Hedgehog said:
MC Bodge said:
It's not about the car, no matter what the marketing people would like you to believe when they are persuading to spend money.
that's why ferrari, red bull and mclaren dont spend 100s of millions a year in development 
StevieB said:
"Basically, could an old school performance car, i.e. a Clio Williams keep up with a modern performance car[hot hatch] on a typical tight, poorly surfaced british backroad?"
A 'supercar' would probably get stuck and an F1 car would be very uncomfortable and difficult to get through the MOT.-and visibility (the limiting factor in the real world of lanes with stone walls and hedges) is worse from a low driving position.
Edited by MC Bodge on Thursday 16th February 09:44
Didn't VBH take a mk1 mx5 up against the lastest and greatest version and they were within a second round the 5th gear track. She said she also preferred the feel of the old car as it was more of a driving experience IIRC.
but then counteracting that is the Top gear test where the Mk1 BDA escort was trounced by a Focus RS?
back roads would probably make it even harder to distinguish as you can't push as hard on real world roads.
but then counteracting that is the Top gear test where the Mk1 BDA escort was trounced by a Focus RS?
back roads would probably make it even harder to distinguish as you can't push as hard on real world roads.
Strawman said:
How wide is this B road? Most B roads are built for trucks to safely travel along, so unless your Modern Hot Hatch is Ferrari Tesstarossa wide then I doubt it would be hampered by the width of the road.
Good point, B roads come in different sizes so I suppose I was thinking the sort of back roads where lorries and testarossas would struggle...Strawman said:
How wide is this B road? Most B roads are built for trucks to safely travel along, so unless your Modern Hot Hatch is Ferrari Tesstarossa wide then I doubt it would be hampered by the width of the road.
- that's made me think of that old Autocar article - Integrale vs Testarossa on a B-road battle!I think it depends on some assumptions.
For the sake of argument, lets put the same driver behind both wheels. Now, is it an older car on standard kit - i.e. original spec tyres, or is it a cherished version with some tasteful modern additions, like some performance rubber? On OEM tyres, I'd say that could be a decisive factor. Modern tyres on the older car brings it very close again.
So then perhaps we look at the road. Some of the Welsh B roads I've driven lend themselves to fun driving without exceeding the NSL. As ever - you're cornering fast, not trying to dragstrip, but if the road opened out, I would expect the newer car to hold the upper hand. Certainly when we ran a 1.4 Caterham, DC2 Integra Type R and am 07 plate Civic turbo diesel with a modded ECU, as soon as the speeds got up there on straights the Civic driver was holding on much more easily.
Now, the kicker: What's better, going fastest, or having the most fun? Because older cars tend to be more raw, less encumbered by electronics and (without wanting the wrath of Top Gear haters on my head) sometimes a lower lever of absolute grip can be a good thing. Personally I'd much rather experience oversteer at 40mph on my old simple tyres than at 90mph on my trackday spec smears of F1 technology rubber. I've only got so many pairs of wipe-clean pants...
For the sake of argument, lets put the same driver behind both wheels. Now, is it an older car on standard kit - i.e. original spec tyres, or is it a cherished version with some tasteful modern additions, like some performance rubber? On OEM tyres, I'd say that could be a decisive factor. Modern tyres on the older car brings it very close again.
So then perhaps we look at the road. Some of the Welsh B roads I've driven lend themselves to fun driving without exceeding the NSL. As ever - you're cornering fast, not trying to dragstrip, but if the road opened out, I would expect the newer car to hold the upper hand. Certainly when we ran a 1.4 Caterham, DC2 Integra Type R and am 07 plate Civic turbo diesel with a modded ECU, as soon as the speeds got up there on straights the Civic driver was holding on much more easily.
Now, the kicker: What's better, going fastest, or having the most fun? Because older cars tend to be more raw, less encumbered by electronics and (without wanting the wrath of Top Gear haters on my head) sometimes a lower lever of absolute grip can be a good thing. Personally I'd much rather experience oversteer at 40mph on my old simple tyres than at 90mph on my trackday spec smears of F1 technology rubber. I've only got so many pairs of wipe-clean pants...
I drive old cars all the time and one of the huge advantages of a modern are the brakes. The better the brakes the faster you can drive. Also the later you can leave the braking. If you take two cars with similar(ish) performance potential over the same road the one that can brake later and accelerate sooner is going to have a massive advantage unless the road is particularly well suited to the other.
Chuck in anything like bad weather or darkness and good wipers and lights come into play.
I love old cars and my 1300cc forty year old has seen off an Impreza, but only the once and only on a really twisty country lane with the odds stacked highly in my favour...
Chuck in anything like bad weather or darkness and good wipers and lights come into play.
I love old cars and my 1300cc forty year old has seen off an Impreza, but only the once and only on a really twisty country lane with the odds stacked highly in my favour...
A B road is more than adequately wide for pretty much any car to move along at a fair turn of speed.
The issue is more that the consequences of doing those speeds would result in a prison sentence.
If you were lucky enough to be taken round the MIRA proving ground handling courses (where many of the tracks are narrower than a B road) in pretty much any family car let alone a sports car by a skilled OEM test driver you would see that the level of capability of most cars is enormous.
The issue is more that the consequences of doing those speeds would result in a prison sentence.
If you were lucky enough to be taken round the MIRA proving ground handling courses (where many of the tracks are narrower than a B road) in pretty much any family car let alone a sports car by a skilled OEM test driver you would see that the level of capability of most cars is enormous.
Another issue is safety- you feel very exposed in something like a Caterham, and even after I fitted a cage I found myself taking note of rather solid looking furniture bordering country roads, and barbed wire fences which would turn into cheese wire.
The lack of ABS and comparative low grip also reduced confidence compared to a more road-focussed car.
On some of the tightest roads I reckon I pedalled my 1.2 Clio faster with greater confidence.
The lack of ABS and comparative low grip also reduced confidence compared to a more road-focussed car.
On some of the tightest roads I reckon I pedalled my 1.2 Clio faster with greater confidence.
entwisi said:
but then counteracting that is the Top gear test where the Mk1 BDA escort was trounced by a Focus RS?
That one was rather daft, take a mk1 Escort set up for forest stages (or so it would appear from the ride height and tyres) and pitch it against a road going Focus RS on a billiard smooth race track. Hardly a fair test? The problem is that we spend too much time worrying about being faster than something or someone else, realistically there are no situation where you need to "beat" another car on the road, occasionally it can be fun to accelerate alongside another car for a brief comparison but that is where it should end, charging down B roads focused on passing or keeping with another car is just asking for trouble, just have your fun on your own on the road, or take it to the track. If you are enjoying your drive, just get on with it.
spoodler said:
The better the brakes the faster you can drive. Also the later you can leave the braking.
How does better brakes = faster? The thing that determines your ability to stop is the coefficient of grip between the tyres and the road surface. Better brakes merely gives you better feel and less chance of fade/overheating. A lot of new cars have massively-over assisted brakes that ramp up really early, giving the impression that they're good. But give the old car a good shove and I'm sure it will stop just as well (ignoring ABS, but if you need that you are definitely driving dangerously).Also a more powerful car will have to brake earlier to get down to the same speed for the corner, assuming all other parameters are equal.
Personally, new vs old purely comes down to which offers more fun, because on a public road visibility will limit progress for both cars to near enough the same point if driven appropriately,i.e being able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear.
It's not as black and white as this.
But the typical modern performance car has large heavy wheels, overwide tyres, large steel rotor brakes, enlarged hubs, beefier drive half shafts and knuckle assemblies - all in which makes a "modern" car not a great choice for rougher roads.
The typical old hot hatch from 25 years ago carries much smaller unsprung weight and a smaller tyre and wheel combo, the car's tyre and suspension is faster reacting to changes on the road surface, making them more surefooted for a given driver so more time on the throttle.
You can have a very low centre of gravity, wide track and big sticky rubber, but all that is ineffective if the tyre cannot keep in firm contact with the road.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff