When is a fake not a fake?
Discussion
When it is a 1930 Bentley apparently.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2112245/Ju...
"The Court of Appeal has overturned a ruling that a classic 1930s Bentley was a fake - even though most of the original parts had been replaced.
Mercedes Brewer, 67, bought the 1930 Bentley Speed Six for £425,000 but later discovered the only original feature was part of the chassis.
The car had been re-bodied by specialist dealer Stanley Mann, who had fitted it with a replica engine."
Reminds me of a Lovejoy episode along the lines of "a William IV knife that had been in the family for generations, it's had 3 new handles and 4 new blades".....
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2112245/Ju...
"The Court of Appeal has overturned a ruling that a classic 1930s Bentley was a fake - even though most of the original parts had been replaced.
Mercedes Brewer, 67, bought the 1930 Bentley Speed Six for £425,000 but later discovered the only original feature was part of the chassis.
The car had been re-bodied by specialist dealer Stanley Mann, who had fitted it with a replica engine."
Reminds me of a Lovejoy episode along the lines of "a William IV knife that had been in the family for generations, it's had 3 new handles and 4 new blades".....
crocodile tears said:
I wouldnt say its a fake.. its more like an idiot who doesnt know anything about rare/historic cars has attempted to buy one at auction as an investment and has later realised they are an idiot.
I agree, if you're going to fork over £400k for a car then at least check things out beforehand.So isn't this car effectively a 'recreation' based on a period Bentley chassis?
If so, it feels like contractual misrep and I am surprised at this decision.
Edit: It feels like a clever barrister has convinced the court this is analogous to the butter knife example (in which case I could half understand the decision), but, from what I can make out, it really isn't! Instead, its like they started with a spoon. Quite a different thing..
If so, it feels like contractual misrep and I am surprised at this decision.
Edit: It feels like a clever barrister has convinced the court this is analogous to the butter knife example (in which case I could half understand the decision), but, from what I can make out, it really isn't! Instead, its like they started with a spoon. Quite a different thing..
Edited by T.K on Friday 9th March 06:13
It must go on all the time. Zagato once said something like "of the 107 TZ cars we produced only 130 remain in existence" I'm sure all of those have at least some original parts.
It called the ship of Theseus paradox or triggers broom to most of us. Boyd Coddington got done for it in the US.
It called the ship of Theseus paradox or triggers broom to most of us. Boyd Coddington got done for it in the US.
98elise said:
This happens a lot. In a few cases a crashed historic race car has ended up as two restored cars many years later.
Wasn't it some famous Bugatti that was the subject of a long running legal case after 2 separate restored cars turned up, one based on the chassis and one based on the drivetrain.This was discussed at length in the classic section, when it first came to court . . . . . . there are virtually no original WO Bentleys left, with most having been restored / rebodied / had engine or gearbox swaps etc. The car in question was not as it left the factory (and was advertised by SM as such) the buyer / buyers husband were well aware of this as both a Bentley enthusiast and dealer, but still took action when they couldn’t make an easy profit 
Nice to see the appeal go through and SM publicly cleared, it makes a change from a bent dealer simply wandering around lying to people that he appealed
Nice to see the appeal go through and SM publicly cleared, it makes a change from a bent dealer simply wandering around lying to people that he appealed
Edited by AndrewW-G on Friday 9th March 07:29
It is certainly an interesting case. Mr Mann summed it up as a Sheraton table with one of the legs having been replaced is still a Sheraton table. Part of the chassis is the original and Mr Mann built the engine to Speed Six specification.
This could have all been avoided had the lady involved not consulted a friend of the family to value it. He said it was worth £300k and the SM sold it later after further work for £600k+. I imagine the lady and the valuer had a falling out of some sort later...
Interesting the Judge was found to have been biased against Mr Mann too. The winners are, as usual, the lawyers here!
This could have all been avoided had the lady involved not consulted a friend of the family to value it. He said it was worth £300k and the SM sold it later after further work for £600k+. I imagine the lady and the valuer had a falling out of some sort later...
Interesting the Judge was found to have been biased against Mr Mann too. The winners are, as usual, the lawyers here!
AndrewW-G said:
This was discussed at length in the classic section, when it first came to court . . . . . . there are virtually no original WO Bentleys left, with most having been restored / rebodied / had engine or gearbox swaps etc. The car in question was not as it left the factory (and was advertised by SM as such) the buyer / buyers husband were well aware of this as both a Bentley enthusiast and dealer, but still took action when they couldn’t make an easy profit
Ok, if was advertised as such, fair decision.Edited by AndrewW-G on Friday 9th March 07:29
The insurance company repossessed the car and sold it back to Mr Mann for £425,000
Surely this indicates the correct price at that time. I would think the "family friend" who valued it at £300,000, either didn`t have a clue what he was doing or was looking to make on the deal somehow.
I understand Mr Mann went on to carry out further work and then sold it on for £675,000, but at the time before he carried out any other work, it was deemed market value at £425,000 (I`m fairly sure the insurers wouldn`t have just gone to him for a price, they must have checked several sources for it`s true value before just selling it to one guy on his appraisal?)
Surely this indicates the correct price at that time. I would think the "family friend" who valued it at £300,000, either didn`t have a clue what he was doing or was looking to make on the deal somehow.
I understand Mr Mann went on to carry out further work and then sold it on for £675,000, but at the time before he carried out any other work, it was deemed market value at £425,000 (I`m fairly sure the insurers wouldn`t have just gone to him for a price, they must have checked several sources for it`s true value before just selling it to one guy on his appraisal?)
The clue to all of this is here;
"Mrs Brewer, an American-born lawyer"
So she buys something as an investment without checking it out properly, the falls back on the finance payments, asks an unreliable friend to value her 'investment', panics, then looks to the courts to sort out all her bad decisions and advice.
What an idiot.
"Mrs Brewer, an American-born lawyer"
So she buys something as an investment without checking it out properly, the falls back on the finance payments, asks an unreliable friend to value her 'investment', panics, then looks to the courts to sort out all her bad decisions and advice.
What an idiot.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff