Driving for Work - Driving Licence Checks
Discussion
Hi All - I'm hoping to get a bit of an insight from the PH Collective on a driving for work issue.
I run risk management programmes for company car and van fleets which includes licence checking as one element. This involves the driver signing a form which allows the DVLA to give their driving licence details directly to us, so we can confirm it's still valid, has the appropriate entitlements, etc.
Very occasionally, I come across a driver who refuses to take part, no matter what assurance I give regarding Data Protection, etc and have never been given a reasonable explanation for this (or at least one I can understand). I was hoping to get more of an insight here, and a better understanding of how drivers feel about these issues.
Can I ask a question of those of you who would object - is there anything that would reassure you and make you happier to participate?
I run risk management programmes for company car and van fleets which includes licence checking as one element. This involves the driver signing a form which allows the DVLA to give their driving licence details directly to us, so we can confirm it's still valid, has the appropriate entitlements, etc.
Very occasionally, I come across a driver who refuses to take part, no matter what assurance I give regarding Data Protection, etc and have never been given a reasonable explanation for this (or at least one I can understand). I was hoping to get more of an insight here, and a better understanding of how drivers feel about these issues.
Can I ask a question of those of you who would object - is there anything that would reassure you and make you happier to participate?
IME it's about trust. The less an employer trusts their staff, the less likely their staff are to trust them. The constant demand for more and more information in order to be seen to be doing (or more accurately to protect the employer from being sued by the employee) something destroys that trust relationship very quickly.
Or to put it another way - "I've been driving myself to my place of work for the last 10 years without incident, and you know it. Why do you not believe me when I say that I can drive a company vehicle without damaging it ?"
("Just let me do the job you pay me to and stop challenging my loyalty. I now think you're looking for a reason to replace me.")
ETA, of course a few of them are probably fibbing about their licences too.
Or to put it another way - "I've been driving myself to my place of work for the last 10 years without incident, and you know it. Why do you not believe me when I say that I can drive a company vehicle without damaging it ?"
("Just let me do the job you pay me to and stop challenging my loyalty. I now think you're looking for a reason to replace me.")
ETA, of course a few of them are probably fibbing about their licences too.
Edited by marshalla on Thursday 15th March 09:43
I used to be in a similar position to yours. We had a simple policy, no licence check, no driving. Everyone was made aware of the rule and no-one objected usually. If however, someone did it was explained to them that they would be moved to another job which didn't require driving. We also used to have driving checks for each vehicle type. Qualified driving instructors at the appropriate vehicle driving level would do the checks.
I would, in your position, make this clear. Should anyone continue to object remove them from driving. There is no good reason for refusing. Should they do so, and you accept this situation, then they go on to have an accident you could also be liable for failing in your duty.
I would, in your position, make this clear. Should anyone continue to object remove them from driving. There is no good reason for refusing. Should they do so, and you accept this situation, then they go on to have an accident you could also be liable for failing in your duty.
I don't know to what degree it still prevails but a DVLA record can exist in several forms. The accurate record refers to cases where admissions are made and the licence produced. However, many motoring cases are proved in absence and the record at DVLA is born in the name and details given which may or may not be accurate.
Sometimes these get picked up and amalgamated into one (leading to licences with excess points but no disqualification) but often they don't so if a licence is submitted for a check, there is a chance errant convictions may surface.
Sometimes these get picked up and amalgamated into one (leading to licences with excess points but no disqualification) but often they don't so if a licence is submitted for a check, there is a chance errant convictions may surface.
Why do you have to go to the lengths of getting information from the DVLA? It seems like overkill and an invasion of privacy beyond what is reasonable. Why not a simple visual confirmation of the license? The employee brings in the two parts of their license and it is recorded that this has been checked and approved - this is good enough for car rental firms (avis, hertz etc) so why do you feel you need to go to this extra unnecessary step of asking for carte-blanche access to personal data?
I would refuse, as it seems an extreme information-grab with no justification.
I would refuse, as it seems an extreme information-grab with no justification.
We have just had to go through another round of licence checks as our system was identified as not being robust enough. - It used to be possible to self certify.
However our check was just showing our DM our licence and insurance details (to prove entitlement to drive for business if we would need to do that). There was no need to involve the DVLA or any databases at all so I can see why some of your people are reluctant.
However our check was just showing our DM our licence and insurance details (to prove entitlement to drive for business if we would need to do that). There was no need to involve the DVLA or any databases at all so I can see why some of your people are reluctant.
Thanks for the replies, guys. We actually carry out the checks for our clients - these drivers don't work for me.
The reason we check licences is partly because we're obliged to - the HSE say it's something that has to be done as a basis duty of care process. It's also basic good practice - we let drivers know their photocard has expired, entitlements aren't correct (think about towing!) etc.
It's really got nothing to do with trust. If there's an accident, the company needs to be able to prove that they've done everything right. I've had to produce files for the HSE in the past, and God forbid something should be out of place! It's interesting you bring that up, though - perhaps it's an issue I need to address up front.
I hate the idea of "no check, no car" though - risk management doesn't work half as well if people are forced into it...
The reason we check licences is partly because we're obliged to - the HSE say it's something that has to be done as a basis duty of care process. It's also basic good practice - we let drivers know their photocard has expired, entitlements aren't correct (think about towing!) etc.
It's really got nothing to do with trust. If there's an accident, the company needs to be able to prove that they've done everything right. I've had to produce files for the HSE in the past, and God forbid something should be out of place! It's interesting you bring that up, though - perhaps it's an issue I need to address up front.
I hate the idea of "no check, no car" though - risk management doesn't work half as well if people are forced into it...
Edited by HuntsmanPH on Thursday 15th March 10:05
There are two reasons for DVLA checks:
1. Accuracy/avoidance of fraud
2. Ease of administration
Of these, no 2 is by far the more important. Have you any idea how long it takes to examine, log details, photocopy and file 10,000 driving licences every year (some of them quarterly!). Far easier and cheaper to use the DVLA and do it electronically.
In my experience, the chance of fraud is so minimal as to be disregarded. It's amazing how many people have problems with their licence but don't know it, though. Photocard expiry, revoked for failure to submit for endorsement, etc, etc...
1. Accuracy/avoidance of fraud
2. Ease of administration
Of these, no 2 is by far the more important. Have you any idea how long it takes to examine, log details, photocopy and file 10,000 driving licences every year (some of them quarterly!). Far easier and cheaper to use the DVLA and do it electronically.
In my experience, the chance of fraud is so minimal as to be disregarded. It's amazing how many people have problems with their licence but don't know it, though. Photocard expiry, revoked for failure to submit for endorsement, etc, etc...
HuntsmanPH said:
In my experience, the chance of fraud is so minimal as to be disregarded. .
I agree, but have you seen the papers recently? We are told everyday to be afraid! We are at contant peril from ID theft, bank fraud, paedos, global warming, terrorists, rioting youff etc.It is hardly surprising that some people start to belive all that s
t and then don't want you to have their details for a reasonable reason.HuntsmanPH said:
Hi All - I'm hoping to get a bit of an insight from the PH Collective on a driving for work issue.
I run risk management programmes for company car and van fleets which includes licence checking as one element. This involves the driver signing a form which allows the DVLA to give their driving licence details directly to us, so we can confirm it's still valid, has the appropriate entitlements, etc.
Very occasionally, I come across a driver who refuses to take part, no matter what assurance I give regarding Data Protection, etc and have never been given a reasonable explanation for this (or at least one I can understand). I was hoping to get more of an insight here, and a better understanding of how drivers feel about these issues.
Can I ask a question of those of you who would object - is there anything that would reassure you and make you happier to participate?
I guess part of it is, treat someone like a child and some will respond in kind.I run risk management programmes for company car and van fleets which includes licence checking as one element. This involves the driver signing a form which allows the DVLA to give their driving licence details directly to us, so we can confirm it's still valid, has the appropriate entitlements, etc.
Very occasionally, I come across a driver who refuses to take part, no matter what assurance I give regarding Data Protection, etc and have never been given a reasonable explanation for this (or at least one I can understand). I was hoping to get more of an insight here, and a better understanding of how drivers feel about these issues.
Can I ask a question of those of you who would object - is there anything that would reassure you and make you happier to participate?
Personally I'm not a law breaker, yet if I was it should be upto the Police to questions me on it and nobody else.
So I would feel affronted that some jumped up private company thinks they are a level above the Police and have the right to demand of me proof I'm not doing anything illegal.
Our work asked something similar a few month back, except they wanted us to fill in the form, as well as a 100 page booklet on driving questions, how you can do a hazard awareness on a nondescript still photo of a road I don't know but that was part of the booklet. I'd have had no problem showing my gaffer my licence maybe taking a copy of it, but no way am I filling in a booklet for a 3rd party shyster company who have somehow managed to worm there way in to get their palms crossed with silver for some snake oil, when I have a full driving licence which entitles me to drive in pretty much most countries in the world.
HuntsmanPH said:
There are two reasons for DVLA checks:
1. Accuracy/avoidance of fraud
2. Ease of administration
Of these, no 2 is by far the more important.
but by saying this you are admitting that you somewhat trample on privacy for the benefit of the business, not the individual....this is why some people are reluctant1. Accuracy/avoidance of fraud
2. Ease of administration
Of these, no 2 is by far the more important.
GreigM said:
Why do you have to go to the lengths of getting information from the DVLA? It seems like overkill and an invasion of privacy beyond what is reasonable. Why not a simple visual confirmation of the license? The employee brings in the two parts of their license and it is recorded that this has been checked and approved - this is good enough for car rental firms (avis, hertz etc) so why do you feel you need to go to this extra unnecessary step of asking for carte-blanche access to personal data?
I would refuse, as it seems an extreme information-grab with no justification.
Driver on, say, 9 points gets flashed by a scamera.I would refuse, as it seems an extreme information-grab with no justification.
Knowing any more points will mean a ban, he writes to DVLA saying he has misplaced his licence so they send a duplicate with the 9 points on it.
NIP comes through and he submits his new duplicate licence to be endorsed and, sure enough, he's banned under totting-up.
Needing to be able to drive if he his to keep his job, support his family, pay his mortgage and taxes, etc, he says nothing to the employer and continues to drive, but now illegally. When the employer asks to check his licence he produces the original with the 9 points on it.
Employer is satisfied and he carries on driving illegally, till he is involved in an accident where someone dies. Police call on the employer to review their documentation and process. What happens next is still waiting for a precedent, but that's why employers want to check data directly with the source.
It would be nice to tell an employee "Let me check your driving record or I will remove your entitlement to drive a company vehicle, and I suppose new Ts & Cs of employment will include such a provision, but for existing employees with a contractual entitlement to a car, or a job that necessitates driving to do the job, HR will have to find a way to work that out WITH the employee.
The fact that you are a third party rather than the employer would put me off personally. Plus as another poster mentioned, the lack of trust. My employer asks for a photo copy of our license to be kept on file, no problem with that, it satisfies there need to prove I have a license if needed and it is kept on site in our HR department.
Big Hat Harry said:
I used to be in a similar position to yours. We had a simple policy, no licence check, no driving. Everyone was made aware of the rule and no-one objected usually. If however, someone did it was explained to them that they would be moved to another job which didn't require driving. We also used to have driving checks for each vehicle type. Qualified driving instructors at the appropriate vehicle driving level would do the checks.
I would, in your position, make this clear. Should anyone continue to object remove them from driving. There is no good reason for refusing. Should they do so, and you accept this situation, then they go on to have an accident you could also be liable for failing in your duty.
This is the only way to do it - corporate manslaughter legislation is part of the bigger picture, but someone 'doing a Gary Hart' on works time is what makes the ring twitch as much if not more than corporate manslaughter.I would, in your position, make this clear. Should anyone continue to object remove them from driving. There is no good reason for refusing. Should they do so, and you accept this situation, then they go on to have an accident you could also be liable for failing in your duty.
realistically the only reason to object to this is the kind of people who used to find but not hand in a 'lost' licence so they had a 'clean licence' to present for checks, meanwhile their points ridden licence stayed safely tucked out of reach from work ...
GreigM said:
Why do you have to go to the lengths of getting information from the DVLA? It seems like overkill and an invasion of privacy beyond what is reasonable. Why not a simple visual confirmation of the license? The employee brings in the two parts of their license and it is recorded that this has been checked and approved - this is good enough for car rental firms (avis, hertz etc) so why do you feel you need to go to this extra unnecessary step of asking for carte-blanche access to personal data?
I would refuse, as it seems an extreme information-grab with no justification.
I would refuse, as it seems an extreme information-grab with no justification.
so Grieg 'two licences' M what's to stop you from presenting a 'spare' licence without points or even from presenting a a paper licence if you are banned / revoked/ medically restricted ...
KingNothing said:
Our work asked something similar a few month back, except they wanted us to fill in the form, as well as a 100 page booklet on driving questions, how you can do a hazard awareness on a nondescript still photo of a road I don't know but that was part of the booklet. I'd have had no problem showing my gaffer my licence maybe taking a copy of it, but no way am I filling in a booklet for a 3rd party shyster company who have somehow managed to worm there way in to get their palms crossed with silver for some snake oil, when I have a full driving licence which entitles me to drive in pretty much most countries in the world.
but your mighty UK driving licence does not make you or your employer immune from PUWER or Corporate Manslaughter legislation.it's odd that people have no objection to the various other licencing and registration requirements to be able to do certain things with respect to work , but ask them to demonstrate they have at least the level of driving knowledge you'd expect from someone who can pass the DSA test and that their licence is valid and they have declared any still valid endporsements and suddenly it's a massiv ooman rites invasion ...
mph1977 said:
so Grieg 'two licences' M what's to stop you from presenting a 'spare' licence without points or even from presenting a a paper licence if you are banned / revoked/ medically restricted ...
As said a few times, it comes down to trust.
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