Why don't they let hauliers run red diesel?

[Alx323]

So, why don't they? Obviously there would be a loss of revenue as truck companies wouldn't be paying fuel duty, but surely the economic benefits would outweigh this, as the cost of almost everything is in some way driven by fuel prices. Was discussing this with some friends earlier, would like to see peoples opinions. Or am I just being stupid? Over to you.

[SystemParanoia]

when has the government ever done something to save business money!

[martin84]

I was speaking to somebody who works for a Haulage firm recently who's firm pays £50million a year in diesel alone, with well over half of that going to the Treasury. It would be too much of a loss to the Treasury to contemplate, however Bus operators receive a 43p a litre duty rebate on white diesel so maybe we shouldnt limit this discussion to red diesel and we should explore rebates as well.

[MissChief]

Because the government would lose out on 100's of millions in duty and VAT?

[veryRS]

And let people stop paying st loads of fuel duty? Chortle.

[martin84]

MissChief said:

Because the government would lose out on 100's of millions in duty and VAT?

But if they believe the theory that handing a tax break to millionaires will 'pay for itself' by encouraging new business, then why cant they buy a theory that fuel tax cut for hauliers could also pay for itself?

Why is a tax break for millionaires deemed beneficial to the treasury yet a tax break for Hauliers deemed 'losing out' on money?

[Apache]

martin84 said:

MissChief said:

Because the government would lose out on 100's of millions in duty and VAT?

But if they believe the theory that handing a tax break to millionaires will 'pay for itself' by encouraging new business, then why cant they buy a theory that fuel tax cut for hauliers could also pay for itself?

Why is a tax break for millionaires deemed beneficial to the treasury yet a tax break for Hauliers deemed 'losing out' on money?

because the take from high earners was considered to be too small....probably because they can all afford to pay smart accountants to find tax avoidance loopholes

[martin84]

Apache said:

because the take from high earners was considered to be too small....probably because they can all afford to pay smart accountants to find tax avoidance loopholes

Then shouldn't the Chancellor be closing those loopholes to force them to pay the correct amount of tax rather than remove the rate? For a Chancellor who described tax avoidance as morally repugnant its odd to remove a rate purely because its intended payees dont pay it.

Will we make murder legal if we decide policing it costs too much money?

[pingu393]

I think zero duty for the haulage industry would be too much of a loss to the treasury. But reduced duty would be an excellent idea.

At the moment they pay approx 120p per litre (145p less VAT). About 60p of the 120p is duty. If only there were a mechanism to reclaim some of the duty.

Also, what constitues haulage? I'm a same-day courier, would I qualify? How about the boss of the haulage company, would his Merc qualify?

[Apache]

martin84 said:

Apache said:

because the take from high earners was considered to be too small....probably because they can all afford to pay smart accountants to find tax avoidance loopholes

Then shouldn't the Chancellor be closing those loopholes to force them to pay the correct amount of tax rather than remove the rate? For a Chancellor who described tax avoidance as morally repugnant its odd to remove a rate purely because its intended payees dont pay it.

Will we make murder legal if we decide policing it costs too much money?

hey don't shoot the messenger, I agree with you, but we all know the duplicitous nature of politicians don't we, Red Ken for example criticised 'tax dodgers' but quite happily did it himself

[Needa308GT4]

Another take on this, though how it would be administered is pure speculation, allow UK based Hauliers a rebate on fuel as per bus companies, but foreign hauliers have to pay full whack.

[Gruber]

Needa308GT4 said:

Another take on this, though how it would be administered is pure speculation, allow UK based Hauliers a rebate on fuel as per bus companies, but foreign hauliers have to pay full whack.

State Aid. A no-no under EU law.

[SystemParanoia]

leave the EU.. problem solved

then we can also tax foreign lorries on the fuel they have in their tanks too

[mattmoxon]

Gruber said:

State Aid. A no-no under EU law.

Then perhaps it is time the UK Gov't grew a backbone told the EU to shove its law where the sun doesn't shine (albeit far less diplomatically than that).

[veryRS]

martin84 said:

But if they believe the theory that handing a tax break to millionaires will 'pay for itself' by encouraging new business, then why cant they buy a theory that fuel tax cut for hauliers could also pay for itself?

Why is a tax break for millionaires deemed beneficial to the treasury yet a tax break for Hauliers deemed 'losing out' on money?

How many politicians are millionaires or friends to millionaires and how many are hauliers? Just sayin..

[martin84]

veryRS said:

How many politicians are millionaires or friends to millionaires and how many are hauliers? Just sayin..

We'd all be nowhere without hauliers, so everybody has a vested interest in making friends with them.

[mrloudly]

mattmoxon said:

Gruber said:

State Aid. A no-no under EU law.

Then perhaps it is time the UK Gov't grew a backbone told the EU to shove its law where the sun doesn't shine (albeit far less diplomatically than that).

Has anyone told the French?

[Alx323]

martin84 said:

I was speaking to somebody who works for a Haulage firm recently who's firm pays £50million a year in diesel alone, with well over half of that going to the Treasury. It would be too much of a loss to the Treasury to contemplate, however Bus operators receive a 43p a litre duty rebate on white diesel so maybe we shouldnt limit this discussion to red diesel and we should explore rebates as well.

Really? I hadn't realised it came to so much, that's a substantial loss obviously, but I thought the gains made would be able to offset that. Had no idea bus compaines already had a rebate, yes perhaps that should be extended. What about adding a small amount extra duty to fuel for other users to compensate? Obviously we're paying through the nose as it is, but little can be done to stop that. Keep the replies coming!

[Alx323]

martin84 said:

We'd all be nowhere without hauliers, so everybody has a vested interest in making friends with them.

Very much this. Despite all the bhing that goes on on PH about lorries slowing the roads down, almost everything is delivered this way. We can't afford to price them off the road

[Justin Cyder]

That is true martin, but you could say the same about butchers, bakers & candle stick makers. The fuel price is not the problem per se, what hauliers don't elaborate upon quite so vociferously is that theirs is an oversupplied, cut throat business. In that context, customers know very well that in the spot hire market, where 90% of hauliers operate, if you jack your prices 10% to cover fuel, then there is a strong likelihood your customer will entertain an approach from the opposition & the opposition will be making approaches on a regular basis.

That's the bigger issue, there are relatively low barriers to entry & it shows in the rates. That and the ever growing encroachment of foreign hauliers with their huge diesel tanks full of cheap diesel & low paid drivers. It's a tough business to get by in. Ask me how tough, I'm a haulier.