FWD -still wrong wheel drive?
Discussion
A lot of ph'ers still like to use the phrase FWD- wrong wheel drive. Is this strictly true these days however, with cars like the Megane R-26R, 265 Trophy? If you look at EVOs track section, the Megane 265 Trophy has taken some serious RWD scalps around Bedford and is within a second of the much more powerful track biased Cayman R and 1 Series M Coupe. In fact I cant think of a non M Badge BMW with less than 400 BHP, that would be quicker around most tracks than the Megane. Aside from drifting and oversteering potential, technically speaking, in terms of speed, is FWD just as good these days?
We all know that more powerful cars should have 4wd or RWD, but for a mid powered car, is it more the case that FWD is no longer "wrong wheel drive" but simply "less fun in the wet, wheel drive"
We all know that more powerful cars should have 4wd or RWD, but for a mid powered car, is it more the case that FWD is no longer "wrong wheel drive" but simply "less fun in the wet, wheel drive"
Edited by StevieB on Saturday 31st March 08:56
FWD exists for one reason only, its cheap and fast to mass produce
whilst it has improved greatly I still dislike it with a passion, even at there best they still wheel spin in the dry / torque steer etc unless you compromise your throttle input, made worse by the wet or drive like an OAP
FWD will never be a choice for me but this is purely a personal choice
whilst it has improved greatly I still dislike it with a passion, even at there best they still wheel spin in the dry / torque steer etc unless you compromise your throttle input, made worse by the wet or drive like an OAP
FWD will never be a choice for me but this is purely a personal choice
There are some cracking FWD cars around, but the limiting factor will always be that the incorrect wheels are driven... The driving pleasure a GOOD RWD car will give far outweighs any argument about fractions of seconds of a laptime.
People will disagree & no doubt bring up the usual integra type R / Rhodius arguement, but I personally won't be spending my own money on a FWD car again when there are so many bargin RWD cars out there, all the way up to the high end Ferraris & Porsches etc.
People will disagree & no doubt bring up the usual integra type R / Rhodius arguement, but I personally won't be spending my own money on a FWD car again when there are so many bargin RWD cars out there, all the way up to the high end Ferraris & Porsches etc.
Some FWD cars are really well conceived:
The various Renaultsport Clios have really peaky engines that can't develop enough torque at low revs to break traction except if you're REALLY leaden footed, and as such they present truly brilliant FWD handling. I challenge anyone to find one of those uninteresting to drive.
However, FWD + high torque at low revs (as per most engines these days - diesels, or turbocharged petrols etc.) means yes, you'll get torque steer.
My old Mini Cooper S was the supercharged one, and it had more torque than it could cope with. You could easily spin all that power away on an inside front wheel in a tight bend. Didn't make it boring to drive though!!
So, yes. FWD is not "Wrong wheel drive".
The various Renaultsport Clios have really peaky engines that can't develop enough torque at low revs to break traction except if you're REALLY leaden footed, and as such they present truly brilliant FWD handling. I challenge anyone to find one of those uninteresting to drive.
However, FWD + high torque at low revs (as per most engines these days - diesels, or turbocharged petrols etc.) means yes, you'll get torque steer.
My old Mini Cooper S was the supercharged one, and it had more torque than it could cope with. You could easily spin all that power away on an inside front wheel in a tight bend. Didn't make it boring to drive though!!
So, yes. FWD is not "Wrong wheel drive".
jbi said:
Imo opinion you can build a great fwd car...
But the same car with rwd would be better.
Fwd exists because it is cheap to build, saves on interior room, and is easier for joe public to drive.
Purpose built sports cars like the gt-86 will always be rwd
So, basically, your "better" car would be:But the same car with rwd would be better.
Fwd exists because it is cheap to build, saves on interior room, and is easier for joe public to drive.
Purpose built sports cars like the gt-86 will always be rwd
-more expensive
-smaller inside
-harder to drive.
Odd.
Consider BMW's MINI. It'd be rubbish if it was RWD.
Or any supermini.
The GT 86 is a truly interesting car, probably one I'm most anticipating at this moment, but it's not for everyone.
This topic will degenerate into name calling, accusations at fascism and schoolboy arguments before you get a real answer.
And all of it will be opinion and personal preference.
So in keeping with that; In my opinion it should not matter what wheel drive a car is, but more how the chassis, engine, suspension and steering make you feel when you drive it. I was a better technical driver when I had my MR2, I had to be. I was quicker, riskier and much more lairs with my Scooby and now I am in a Focus St170 I am all about conserving momentum and high cornering speeds to make up for the relative lack of power.
I have no preference as to which wheels are driven, just that the car is fun and engaging.
For the record, the focus is the most fun of the 3, such a good little steer and you can really wring its neck. The MR2 was the most rewarding, if you got a series of corners right, the little wiggle from the back end as the power came in and the feeling of relief that it hadn't decided that today was a good day to throw you backwards off the road..The Scooby was the most addictive, foot down, revs rise, turbo whistle, whoosh- bang off to the next corner where you could act like a fool and it would gather you up and repeat the process.
The next car will be a MR2 turbo, hoping to combine the turbo addiction with the relief at not going backwards through a hedge.
And all of it will be opinion and personal preference.
So in keeping with that; In my opinion it should not matter what wheel drive a car is, but more how the chassis, engine, suspension and steering make you feel when you drive it. I was a better technical driver when I had my MR2, I had to be. I was quicker, riskier and much more lairs with my Scooby and now I am in a Focus St170 I am all about conserving momentum and high cornering speeds to make up for the relative lack of power.
I have no preference as to which wheels are driven, just that the car is fun and engaging.
For the record, the focus is the most fun of the 3, such a good little steer and you can really wring its neck. The MR2 was the most rewarding, if you got a series of corners right, the little wiggle from the back end as the power came in and the feeling of relief that it hadn't decided that today was a good day to throw you backwards off the road..The Scooby was the most addictive, foot down, revs rise, turbo whistle, whoosh- bang off to the next corner where you could act like a fool and it would gather you up and repeat the process.
The next car will be a MR2 turbo, hoping to combine the turbo addiction with the relief at not going backwards through a hedge.
RWD cossie wil said:
I have driven plenty of high powered FWD cars, torque steer is hugely over-criticised IMHO, a faint tug at the wheel is hardly the end of the world is it?
thing is its not faint, even the focus RS500 has chronic torque steer, unless you drive like an old womanso im out
Dave Hedgehog said:
thing is its not faint, even the focus RS500 has chronic torque steer, unless you drive like an old woman
so im out
Really? The one thing I recall from reviews of the RS was that it had comparatively little torque steer. so im out
For example:
autocar said:
Earlier this week I spent two days in France with the RS and can report that, actually, you're right. It does torque steer.
A bit.
It's at its most prevalent near straight-ahead. Accelerate onto a motorway through third gear, and across cambers the RS will take nibbles at the steering wheel.
Which is about as surprising as finding it gets dark at night. The surprise is how little there is. The RS's traction out of tighter bends really is astonishing too.
With a lot of lock, out of a second-gear uphill corner it'll rocket away with no front-wheel slip at all and precious little torque effect on the steering.
http://www.autocar.co.uk/blogs/stillatthewheel/archive/2009/02/27/34481.aspxA bit.
It's at its most prevalent near straight-ahead. Accelerate onto a motorway through third gear, and across cambers the RS will take nibbles at the steering wheel.
Which is about as surprising as finding it gets dark at night. The surprise is how little there is. The RS's traction out of tighter bends really is astonishing too.
With a lot of lock, out of a second-gear uphill corner it'll rocket away with no front-wheel slip at all and precious little torque effect on the steering.
MonkeyMatt said:
jbi said:
Yes... Consider this
The hyundai coupe vs the hyundai genesis coupe.
Two very differnet cars for very different marketsThe hyundai coupe vs the hyundai genesis coupe.
budgie smuggler said:
Dave Hedgehog said:
thing is its not faint, even the focus RS500 has chronic torque steer, unless you drive like an old woman
so im out
Really? The one thing I recall from reviews of the RS was that it had comparatively little torque steer. so im out
its a personal preference of course, many drivers have grown up only knowing FWD cars, I was just on the cusp of the change over, my mums corolla was RWD that i practised in and i had a turbo charged XR4i at 19
jbi said:
Imo opinion you can build a great fwd car...
But the same car with rwd would be better.
I think this is totally wrong. I'm old enough to remember when most cars were rwd, and most were dreadful, understeering pigs, all blown away by the Mini. The Mini was still the superior drivers car to most mass produced rwd cars when it was over 20 years old. But the same car with rwd would be better.
There have been some cracking hot hatches made in the past couple of decades or so. I can recall the ancient rwd hatched such as the Lotus Sunbeam and Vauxhall Chevette, which were blown away by the Golf GTi (as were the Escorts of the day too).
The entertaining hot hatches of the day would have been rendered numb and overweight by being rwd.
Dave Hedgehog said:
budgie smuggler said:
Dave Hedgehog said:
thing is its not faint, even the focus RS500 has chronic torque steer, unless you drive like an old woman
so im out
Really? The one thing I recall from reviews of the RS was that it had comparatively little torque steer. so im out
its a personal preference of course, many drivers have grown up only knowing FWD cars, I was just on the cusp of the change over, my mums corolla was RWD that i practised in and i had a turbo charged XR4i at 19
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