Nice modern (ish) car without all the electronic aids..?
Discussion
After nearly a year with my E61 530d I'm really starting to hate all the electronics on the car. The last couple of cars were a late 90's Mitsubishi which had way less in the way of sensors for everything, still had issues with a few things over the time I had it, and a 2002 Accord which was dull as dishwater (but never went wrong).
I drove my wife's Celica 190 the other for the first time in ages a few weeks ago, and realised the 530d is missing so much in the way of driver feedback and simplicity, albeit at the expense of refinement, but my Camaro last night it shows it up even more in that it drives so nicely and just doesn't go wrong with it's 40 year old design and lack of sensors to fail all the time.
Does there exist a modern car (less than 10 years old) that is comfy, spacious, quick enough, nice to drive and well made but doesn't have all the unnecessary additions most modern cars have like the BMW, ie - traction control, auto wipers, self levelling suspension, iDrive, numb electric power steering, tyre pressure monitor, electric seats, etc.. among the countless other weight adding things that will go wrong in time...
If not, is it only me that would buy one ?
I drove my wife's Celica 190 the other for the first time in ages a few weeks ago, and realised the 530d is missing so much in the way of driver feedback and simplicity, albeit at the expense of refinement, but my Camaro last night it shows it up even more in that it drives so nicely and just doesn't go wrong with it's 40 year old design and lack of sensors to fail all the time.
Does there exist a modern car (less than 10 years old) that is comfy, spacious, quick enough, nice to drive and well made but doesn't have all the unnecessary additions most modern cars have like the BMW, ie - traction control, auto wipers, self levelling suspension, iDrive, numb electric power steering, tyre pressure monitor, electric seats, etc.. among the countless other weight adding things that will go wrong in time...
If not, is it only me that would buy one ?
).... I think the idea of a simpler but well engineered car is very appealing indeed. There are a few of us on PH but we're in the minority I believe.
What would be ideal for me would be well engineered in terms of Mechanical Engineering , multi link rear end, double wishbones front, good geometry, torsionally rigid shell, with good sorted suspension, crisp engine with good throttle response but none of the over complicated crap.
I too like the simplicity of my 70 Challenger or E21 BMW 323i.
What would be ideal for me would be well engineered in terms of Mechanical Engineering , multi link rear end, double wishbones front, good geometry, torsionally rigid shell, with good sorted suspension, crisp engine with good throttle response but none of the over complicated crap.
I too like the simplicity of my 70 Challenger or E21 BMW 323i.
chevy-stu said:
Was more of a hypothetical question of why have cars become so complex and reliant on electronics.. Is it what people really want ?
Dom Littlewood was on BBC this morning chasing up VW for a few customers who had issues where the ESP light was coming on..One of the two women said they were scared to (and wouldn't) drive the car with the risk that the ESP might not be working.. There was rain, and light snow, so very, very, dangerous, life threatening.. in fact, deadly conditions..
Saying something along the lines that she wants to feel safe in those conditions..
She might as well be a passenger.
Conor D said:
One of the two women said they were scared to (and wouldn't) drive the car with the risk that the ESP might not be working.. There was rain, and light snow, so very, very, dangerous, life threatening.. in fact, deadly conditions..
There's a difference between having no ESP and having malfunctioning ESP.That little box of tricks can control the throttle, countermand your braking and use differential braking to turn the car. Those same abilities is has to stop you going through a hedge backwards could, if the box was poorly programmed, be used to throw you violently off the road. I'm sure in practice they are very much fail-safe, but having a box that can override your commands and isn't working properly would be a damn sight more unnerving than having no ESP in the first place.
Basic common sense dictates that such systems would just switch off and light up the dash if they weren't fully working, as that would be much better than malfunctioning and locking up one wheel and chucking you into the path of oncoming traffic, or whatever other potential nightmare scenario.
Conor D said:
Dom Littlewood was on BBC this morning chasing up VW for a few customers who had issues where the ESP light was coming on..
Had same problem on our VW Touran, as soon as it snowed the ESP light came on, turned out to be a failed Teves ABS controller....or so they told us, repaired under warranty and a well known problem with recent VW cars as I am le to believe along with turbos and injectors, etcSee that's the problem, when the ABS started playing up in my Mitsi, the brakes would play up and the ABS would kick in way way too early making the car dangerous to drive... I pulled the ABS fuse and it was great, as I as the DRIVER decided when to lock the wheels up or use cadence braking
Got it fixed as it was just a couple of broken reluctor rings..
Got it fixed as it was just a couple of broken reluctor rings..
veevee said:
Basic common sense dictates that such systems would just switch off and light up the dash if they weren't fully working, as that would be much better than malfunctioning and locking up one wheel and chucking you into the path of oncoming traffic, or whatever other potential nightmare scenario.
Basic common sense also suggests the ECUs in aeroplanes don't fly them into forests when the pilots try to pull up and the ECUs in space rockets don't suffer from schoolboy programming errors and explode. But that kind of stuff does happen. It's not common, but it happens. What the programmer thought they told the system to do and what they actually told the system to do are not always the same thing.I don't lose any sleep over it. I'm sure they're well engineered, highly reliable and do fail safe - I wouldn't drive a car with ESP if I didn't believe that. I doubt they're perfect though.
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