time for a simple new car?
Discussion
Read yesterday that the normal number of ECUs in an average car is now 75. The Chevy Volt electric car has nearly one hundred of 'em, and needs 10 million lines of computer code to operate. Same story (on Autocar) suggested that a luxury car has up to 10 billion transistors. Yep, TEN BILLION.
Dropped my ancient MX-5 off at my local garage man this morning for some (hopefully) simple brake work. He's a good guy who wants to do the best for his customers but gets fed up with the needless complexity of modern cars and the fact that the ones he sees on a regular basis almost always have something going wrong with them on the electrical side.
Isn't it about time a manufacturer responded to the way the economy is going by offering a simple car with points ignition, wind-up windows and an absolute minimum of electronics? Do we really need all the 'features' a modern car gives us?
Dropped my ancient MX-5 off at my local garage man this morning for some (hopefully) simple brake work. He's a good guy who wants to do the best for his customers but gets fed up with the needless complexity of modern cars and the fact that the ones he sees on a regular basis almost always have something going wrong with them on the electrical side.
Isn't it about time a manufacturer responded to the way the economy is going by offering a simple car with points ignition, wind-up windows and an absolute minimum of electronics? Do we really need all the 'features' a modern car gives us?
I agree with you entirely, however I suspect that the market for such a car would be smaller than you think. People want Auxillary input for their MP-3, Air Con, Electric Windows, TCS, ABS, Isofix, two airbags for each occupant etc etc, with superb fuel economy and low taxation to boot.
I think in terms of reliability vs complexity, the early-mid 90s was the sweet spot!
I think in terms of reliability vs complexity, the early-mid 90s was the sweet spot!
HustleRussell said:
Incidentally if I were in charge of 'Dacia' or 'Tata' for example, this is exactly what I'd be doing.
I'm wondering if this is Renault's long-term strategy as they appear to be binning all their regular cars, could they be going for what might be called a 'third world' mix of EVs and simple/cheap IC cars? If so I would applaud that as a visionary approach. A modern CPU has several billion transistors on a single chip, so 10 billion running an electrically powered car isn't really that strange. I do take your point though, my last bike was built in 1992 and had carbs, I could pretty much dismantle and reassemble the whole thing myself if I wanted to, I wouldnt stand a chance with modern stuff.
RizzoTheRat said:
A modern CPU has several billion transistors on a single chip.
Bloody norah, really? I've got nothing against transistors, you could make a case for them as the single biggest advance in human history but I do have a problem with the car companies' blanket approach of 'if it can be done, let's do it', rather than questioning at an early stage the actual NEED for something. 
Again I have to say I feel the consumer drives these 'advances'. For example, a work colleague of mine was really excited when he realised that his car dipped the nearside rear view mirror down a bit and if the wipers were on, wiped the rear screen if he selected reverse. His enthusiasm for this feature was untempered by thought of 'is this strictly necessary' and 'what if it goes wrong'.
At best these broken features just become something you've got to hide at resale time. My MX-5 has windy windows, door mirror glasses you adjust with your finger and a hood you lift up and down with your hand. I've never felt the need for electrification of ANY of these items. I positively seek out this type of simplicity when buying a car.
I'd better jump on the bandwagon of hating electricity pretty sharpish by the sound of it, we've collected some classic PH Luddites into one thread!
Most car electronics are reliable, not just initially but for hundreds of thousands of miles. How far would you get on a carb and dizzy setup without it needing adjustment and tuning? Not 100k or more miles like a modern ECU with coilpack will regularly do.
That's not to mention modern emissions regulations, which could never be reasonably met with a carb. Some of the courtesy electronics may wear out one day, but convenience features like dipping the mirrors when engaging reverse and wiping a rear window are just that - if they gave up you wouldn't really care, would you?
I'm not saying I want my car to be a branch of Dixons, but automatically assuming a car with some electronic gizmos is going to break before the car is scrap is completely unfounded.
Most car electronics are reliable, not just initially but for hundreds of thousands of miles. How far would you get on a carb and dizzy setup without it needing adjustment and tuning? Not 100k or more miles like a modern ECU with coilpack will regularly do.
That's not to mention modern emissions regulations, which could never be reasonably met with a carb. Some of the courtesy electronics may wear out one day, but convenience features like dipping the mirrors when engaging reverse and wiping a rear window are just that - if they gave up you wouldn't really care, would you?
I'm not saying I want my car to be a branch of Dixons, but automatically assuming a car with some electronic gizmos is going to break before the car is scrap is completely unfounded.
Blackpuddin said:
Read yesterday that the normal number of ECUs in an average car is now 75. The Chevy Volt electric car has nearly one hundred of 'em, and needs 10 million lines of computer code to operate. Same story (on Autocar) suggested that a luxury car has up to 10 billion transistors. Yep, TEN BILLION.
Dropped my ancient MX-5 off at my local garage man this morning for some (hopefully) simple brake work. He's a good guy who wants to do the best for his customers but gets fed up with the needless complexity of modern cars and the fact that the ones he sees on a regular basis almost always have something going wrong with them on the electrical side.
Isn't it about time a manufacturer responded to the way the economy is going by offering a simple car with points ignition, wind-up windows and an absolute minimum of electronics? Do we really need all the 'features' a modern car gives us?
If you want to return to a car with points based ignition, good luck to ya, and yer condensation filled, spluttery, late to work, misty mornings. That's the last thing that should be returned too. Electric windows, well the only one worthwhile is the passengers side.Dropped my ancient MX-5 off at my local garage man this morning for some (hopefully) simple brake work. He's a good guy who wants to do the best for his customers but gets fed up with the needless complexity of modern cars and the fact that the ones he sees on a regular basis almost always have something going wrong with them on the electrical side.
Isn't it about time a manufacturer responded to the way the economy is going by offering a simple car with points ignition, wind-up windows and an absolute minimum of electronics? Do we really need all the 'features' a modern car gives us?
Give China another decade or so and your prayers should be answered. They have started putting out cheap commuter bikes such as Moto and Kymco iirc and they are so cheap it is silly. Chinese cars such as Great Wall are advertising heavily over here and although they are like normal cars, they are bare bones by comparison.
While I agree that a simple car would be nice, there's not much of a market for it here. Sure in poorer countries. But as said, people here want mp3s and a whole host of gadgets. Not to mention that manufacturers like to make things complex so that an owner will take their car to the dealer for a ECU error message then taking it to an independant (or even doing it themselves).
I remember Top Gear doing a news item on a £3k Renault saloon for east Europe called the Logan - the size of a Laguna but with tiny steel wheels, no radio/aircon etc, wind up windows, no TC or other electronic aids. They were lamenting the fact that it isnt available over here, and I agree there could be a market over here for those that just want a CAR not a computerised lounge on wheels.
As for those of you who reckon we need all this useless frippery and reckon cars without it just dont work - b
ks. My Land rover has points ignition, a carburettor and absolutely everything is mechanical - and guess what? It has never failed to start even in the depths of winter, never "coughs and splutters" as one person reckoned above, and once the engine is warm the heater and some heat soak keeps the cabin perfectly toastily warm.
sadly though I cant see a mainly-mechanical car making a comeback due to the ever more stringent ridiculous EU emissions laws - those fabulous "pollution reduction" measures that increase pollution from the increased complexity in manufacture needed in cars that are capable of meeting them......
As for those of you who reckon we need all this useless frippery and reckon cars without it just dont work - b
ks. My Land rover has points ignition, a carburettor and absolutely everything is mechanical - and guess what? It has never failed to start even in the depths of winter, never "coughs and splutters" as one person reckoned above, and once the engine is warm the heater and some heat soak keeps the cabin perfectly toastily warm.sadly though I cant see a mainly-mechanical car making a comeback due to the ever more stringent ridiculous EU emissions laws - those fabulous "pollution reduction" measures that increase pollution from the increased complexity in manufacture needed in cars that are capable of meeting them......
The Crack Fox said:
dmulally said:
Chinese cars such as Great Wall are advertising heavily over here and although they are like normal cars, they are bare bones by comparison.
Aren't they deathtraps ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ULm6QrC428&fea...
They unashamedly copy what they can see but can't copy the engineering behind it
mat777 said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ULm6QrC428&fea...
They unashamedly copy what they can see but can't copy the engineering behind it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IYp3NCRZYw
jbi said:
mat777 said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ULm6QrC428&fea...
They unashamedly copy what they can see but can't copy the engineering behind it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IYp3NCRZYw
And just to add insult to injury, they even used a ripoff song!
mat777 said:
2 things - firstly, that's C-NCAP, China's ripoff of the Euro NCAP that doesnt have anything like as stringent standards. Secondly, you can even tell by the footage of the crash block after the impact that this test is a completely rigged fraud - in the Euro tests they are solid blocks but that blue block in the Chinese test was crushed like a coke can!!!!!!
And just to add insult to injury, they even used a ripoff song!
That's a deformable barrier which is the same as the EU test.And just to add insult to injury, they even used a ripoff song!
C-NCAP testing is being upgraded to match euro testing this year by adding 10km/hr onto the speed.
here's another vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uyr_vwK8KaU
mat777 said:
The Crack Fox said:
dmulally said:
Chinese cars such as Great Wall are advertising heavily over here and although they are like normal cars, they are bare bones by comparison.
Aren't they deathtraps ?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ULm6QrC428&fea...
They unashamedly copy what they can see but can't copy the engineering behind it
t!!!
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