What 2nd car, sub £10k? Elise, VX220, something else?
Discussion
Sold my 197 last year as it was a bit maintenance intensive and for a daily. Since then I have been smoking around in a sheddy 1.6 Focus, which is actually fine for day to day use, much more economical than the Clio and "touch wood" more robust and generally cheaper to run. Initially the Focus was planned as a stop gap as I fancied a Boxster S, Z4 or similar, but I have decided to keep it as a daily for the foreseeable.
I did several TD's in the Clio and it was great, clearly this is not something that a leggy 1.6 Focus is really suited to so I am considering getting something a bit more focussed.
In truth I am not really sure what I want, but given that it is a second car and will probably only be used for 4,000 - 6,000 miles per year I want something that won't depreciate much.
Part of me would like something smart and fast that we could use as a family of three, so say a 996 or an E46 M3, but another part of me thinks that either of those options could present some fairly sizeable bills. Stretching the budget to a 3.6 996 could be achievable but looking at the values of early 3.4's these still have a fair way to depreciate. I have partly disregarded the Boxster as aside from a lower entry price, maintenance costs are likely to be similar to a similar vintage 996.
This leads me to something more along the lines of a track / fun car. I don't particularly want to go the stripped out hot hatch route as I don't think this would be much use away from a track. With this in mind I am led towards either a Caterham or an Elise. Caterhams seem to hold their money extremely well, and Elise's seem to stick above £8k unless they have done lots of miles. Having not had something so focussed before I think the Elise would be easier to live with and would get more use as a consequence.
If I am considering an Elise should I also be thinking about a VX220? Does the VX220 have more in common with the Mk1 or Mk2 Elise? Is the Mk1 or Mk2 Elise considered the better car?
How come there are so many different power outputs from the same 1.8 K series?
Despite the commonality there seems to be little common forum space for these two cars, where should I be looking to find the answers I am after?
What other cars should I be thinking about?
Should I just buy a Mk2 MX-5 1.8S?
Appreciate anyone taking the time to read and reply.
I did several TD's in the Clio and it was great, clearly this is not something that a leggy 1.6 Focus is really suited to so I am considering getting something a bit more focussed.
In truth I am not really sure what I want, but given that it is a second car and will probably only be used for 4,000 - 6,000 miles per year I want something that won't depreciate much.
Part of me would like something smart and fast that we could use as a family of three, so say a 996 or an E46 M3, but another part of me thinks that either of those options could present some fairly sizeable bills. Stretching the budget to a 3.6 996 could be achievable but looking at the values of early 3.4's these still have a fair way to depreciate. I have partly disregarded the Boxster as aside from a lower entry price, maintenance costs are likely to be similar to a similar vintage 996.
This leads me to something more along the lines of a track / fun car. I don't particularly want to go the stripped out hot hatch route as I don't think this would be much use away from a track. With this in mind I am led towards either a Caterham or an Elise. Caterhams seem to hold their money extremely well, and Elise's seem to stick above £8k unless they have done lots of miles. Having not had something so focussed before I think the Elise would be easier to live with and would get more use as a consequence.
If I am considering an Elise should I also be thinking about a VX220? Does the VX220 have more in common with the Mk1 or Mk2 Elise? Is the Mk1 or Mk2 Elise considered the better car?
How come there are so many different power outputs from the same 1.8 K series?
Despite the commonality there seems to be little common forum space for these two cars, where should I be looking to find the answers I am after?
What other cars should I be thinking about?
Should I just buy a Mk2 MX-5 1.8S?
Appreciate anyone taking the time to read and reply.
The VX220 falls somewhere between the late mk1 and early mk2 Elise. Certainly the practicality aspects (roof, sill height, etc) are more like the mk2. It's certainly worth driving all iterations of both that fall into your budget to see which you prefer.
With respect to the K-series lumps, as far as I know they go:
118bhp K-series found in the S1
120bhp K-series found in the S2
143bhp VVC K-series found in the S1 111S
156bhp VVC K-series found in the S2 111S
135bhp K-series found in the Sport135
160bhp K-series found in the Sport160
190bhp "VHPD" K-series found in the Sport190 and Exige
Other than the VHPD they're all fairly tractable, low-stressed lumps. There doesn't seem to be any real difference in reliability. The VVC units generally feel slightly more torquey than the non-VVC ones.
If it's a second car, my money would probably be going on a Caterham.
ETA: SELOC is the best place for information on Elises derivatives, including the VX220.
With respect to the K-series lumps, as far as I know they go:
118bhp K-series found in the S1
120bhp K-series found in the S2
143bhp VVC K-series found in the S1 111S
156bhp VVC K-series found in the S2 111S
135bhp K-series found in the Sport135
160bhp K-series found in the Sport160
190bhp "VHPD" K-series found in the Sport190 and Exige
Other than the VHPD they're all fairly tractable, low-stressed lumps. There doesn't seem to be any real difference in reliability. The VVC units generally feel slightly more torquey than the non-VVC ones.
If it's a second car, my money would probably be going on a Caterham.
ETA: SELOC is the best place for information on Elises derivatives, including the VX220.
Edited by kambites on Wednesday 9th May 13:39
Elise / VX220 / Caterham are all well and good for a weekend / fun / track car but will you be able to restrict yourself to using it just for this? Will you want to take it on weekend breaks or use it for work? if the answer is yes and I suspect it will be then you will need something with a boot which brings you back towards an MX5, Z4, Boxter.
designforlife said:
i'd be looking at a turbo'd mk1 or mk2 MX5...very cheap to buy atm, £3-5k should net a reasonable one...nudging (or surpassing) 200bhp but with mx5 servicing costs.
I am disinclined to get a modified example though as there may be reliability issues and they tend to be more difficult to move on.kambites said:
The VX220 falls somewhere between the late mk1 and early mk2 Elise. Certainly the practicality aspects (roof, sill height, etc) are more like the mk2. It's certainly worth driving all iterations of both that fall into your budget to see which you prefer.
With respect to the K-series lumps, as far as I know they go:
118bhp K-series found in the S1
120bhp K-series found in the S2
143bhp VVC K-series found in the S1 111S
156bhp VVC K-series found in the S2 111S
135bhp K-series found in the Sport135
160bhp K-series found in the Sport160
190bhp "VHPD" K-series found in the Sport190 and Exige
Other than the VHPD they're all fairly tractable, low-stressed lumps. There doesn't seem to be any real difference in reliability. The VVC units generally feel slightly more torquey than the non-VVC ones.
If it's a second car, my money would probably be going on a Caterham.
ETA: SELOC is the best place for information on Elises derivatives, including the VX220.
Thanks for that, Caterham is perhaps just a bit too hard core for now, at least the Elise has some nod towards practicality, and if necessary somewhere reasonable secure to leave a bag.With respect to the K-series lumps, as far as I know they go:
118bhp K-series found in the S1
120bhp K-series found in the S2
143bhp VVC K-series found in the S1 111S
156bhp VVC K-series found in the S2 111S
135bhp K-series found in the Sport135
160bhp K-series found in the Sport160
190bhp "VHPD" K-series found in the Sport190 and Exige
Other than the VHPD they're all fairly tractable, low-stressed lumps. There doesn't seem to be any real difference in reliability. The VVC units generally feel slightly more torquey than the non-VVC ones.
If it's a second car, my money would probably be going on a Caterham.
ETA: SELOC is the best place for information on Elises derivatives, including the VX220.
I am aware of Seloc but hadn't paid much attention as I assumed it has a very South East bias?
BoRED S2upid said:
Elise / VX220 / Caterham are all well and good for a weekend / fun / track car but will you be able to restrict yourself to using it just for this? Will you want to take it on weekend breaks or use it for work? if the answer is yes and I suspect it will be then you will need something with a boot which brings you back towards an MX5, Z4, Boxter.
There seem to be plenty of folks who wax lyrical about how much they can fit into their Elise's. I have the Focus for day to day and work. If I was looking at getting something for going away then it would probably need to have four seats and I am back considering a 996 or M3.christofmccracke said:
What about an evo?
Not a bad shout but if I am going to have a car sat in the garage all week then part of me thinks it shouldn't be a 4dr saloon. Plus I am concerned that in track use one would quickly become very expensive to maintain, and by the time it ran out of grip I would be well and truly out of talent. Also I am concerned that an Evo, Scooby, etc. could attract the wrong kind of attention.IMO if I am going to use a car on track then it needs to be light otherwise the costs will add up very quickly, which is part of my leaning towards an Elise / VX, etc. I have been pondering an MX-5 to the extent of bidding on one a few months ago, but they just don't seem to excite me. This is probably partially badge snobbery and I have no doubt that it would be the most sensible option.
BoRED S2upid said:
Elise / VX220 / Caterham are all well and good for a weekend / fun / track car but will you be able to restrict yourself to using it just for this? Will you want to take it on weekend breaks or use it for work? if the answer is yes and I suspect it will be then you will need something with a boot which brings you back towards an MX5, Z4, Boxter.
The Elise (and I presume VX) has an ok boot - certainly good enough for a weekend away for two, the opening is too small for suitcases but bags/rucksacks are fine.FlashBastd said:
I am aware of Seloc but hadn't paid much attention as I assumed it has a very South East bias?
It certainly started out that way, but it's become rather more generic over the years. The Elise's boot is 115 litres, a mk3 MX5's is about 150. Access is poor though, so you have to pack carefully.
I use my Elise as a daily driver and have seen few of these "limitations" that people talk about. The boot isn't massively smaller than any other small sports car, it's never broken down, it does 40mpg, it seats two in reasonable comfort,... the only real down-sides are the noise level (easily solved with a pair of ear-plugs) and the difficulty of entry and exit in tight parking spaces (easily solved by rolling the roof back a bit, as long as it's not raining).
Edited by kambites on Wednesday 9th May 14:02
BoRED S2upid said:
Elise / VX220 / Caterham are all well and good for a weekend / fun / track car but will you be able to restrict yourself to using it just for this? Will you want to take it on weekend breaks or use it for work? if the answer is yes and I suspect it will be then you will need something with a boot which brings you back towards an MX5, Z4, Boxter.
Pah, you can easily fit a weekends worth of stuff for two people in the VX.I use my VX daily - its awesome. Makes me enjoy my commute (when it's not raining at least) - helped by the B roads on my route however.
I couldn't recommend a VX enough. I'm not sure what parts are shared with an Elise but a Lotus Europa is just VX Turbo in drag so Lotus must have thought they were good enough to make into their own car.
Thanks guys, I am very much leaning towards an Elise or VX220, really not sure which to go for. I guess I should be posting in the Lotus section to try to get an idea of how to choose between them and what are the desirable options.
From what I can gather aftermarket suspension isn't a bad thing, and a hard top would be useful.
I should probably have made clear that this is a second car for me. My wife has something sensible and I have the Focus, so something a bit compromised shouldn't be too much of a stretch.
Strikes me that an Evora would be ideal for what I need, i.e. the option to shove a small child in the back, but they are somewhat outside of my budget.
From what I can gather aftermarket suspension isn't a bad thing, and a hard top would be useful.
I should probably have made clear that this is a second car for me. My wife has something sensible and I have the Focus, so something a bit compromised shouldn't be too much of a stretch.
Strikes me that an Evora would be ideal for what I need, i.e. the option to shove a small child in the back, but they are somewhat outside of my budget.
Contemplating a similar choice currently and opting out of company car scheme. I've worked out I can buy a reasonable estate (Mondeo, Saab etc) for around £3k and then have budget of around £12k for a fun car - personally I'm leaning towards the VX turbo.
My thinking is that out of my 20k miles per year commute, I will use the VX a lot in summer and on dry days, the rest will be in the estate, so roughly 50:50 'ish.
I'll have a practical car for the family, for chucking my bike and dog in, going to the tip etc, and then a fun car for my B road commute and taking my son for spins at the weekend. It seems like a perfect combination, because I can't see the point in having a practical car that spends at least 5 days of the week with only me in it, but I still need that practicality for the odd trip. I'm also getting chuffed off with putting my bike in the back of my current hatchback and getting mud all over the place.
By virtue of the fact the VX isn't particularly practical or has many creature comforts, I know I won't be tempted to take it out of the garage unless it's warm and dry, therefore limiting the number of miles I put on it. I briefly considered a Boxster/Z4 but decided these are too 'normal' and I'd definitely end up using it every day, so have to put up with the running costs that go with that.
I think if you're going to go for a 2nd fun car and one that you'll take on track, and like the OP I'm not a big MX5 fan, there isn't much else other than Elise or VX to choose from.
My thinking is that out of my 20k miles per year commute, I will use the VX a lot in summer and on dry days, the rest will be in the estate, so roughly 50:50 'ish.
I'll have a practical car for the family, for chucking my bike and dog in, going to the tip etc, and then a fun car for my B road commute and taking my son for spins at the weekend. It seems like a perfect combination, because I can't see the point in having a practical car that spends at least 5 days of the week with only me in it, but I still need that practicality for the odd trip. I'm also getting chuffed off with putting my bike in the back of my current hatchback and getting mud all over the place.
By virtue of the fact the VX isn't particularly practical or has many creature comforts, I know I won't be tempted to take it out of the garage unless it's warm and dry, therefore limiting the number of miles I put on it. I briefly considered a Boxster/Z4 but decided these are too 'normal' and I'd definitely end up using it every day, so have to put up with the running costs that go with that.
I think if you're going to go for a 2nd fun car and one that you'll take on track, and like the OP I'm not a big MX5 fan, there isn't much else other than Elise or VX to choose from.
You really need to drive them all and see which you like.
When trying them, bear in mind that any Elise based car can be made to handle much like any other Elise based car with minor modifications (suspension components are pretty interchangeable), so it makes sense to concentrate on the bits which are more integral to the car like the engine, braking system, roof design, etc. The VX220 is a bit heavier than any K-series based Elise (because the clam shells are heavier) but it doesn't have a huge effect on the handling.
When trying them, bear in mind that any Elise based car can be made to handle much like any other Elise based car with minor modifications (suspension components are pretty interchangeable), so it makes sense to concentrate on the bits which are more integral to the car like the engine, braking system, roof design, etc. The VX220 is a bit heavier than any K-series based Elise (because the clam shells are heavier) but it doesn't have a huge effect on the handling.
Thanks, interestingly our requirements are very similar; I am in the process of fitting a towbar to the back of the Focus to accommodate a bike rack. I am also very tempted by a VX Turbo, not too keen on going over £10k though. The VXR is the one to get isn't it?
Using the Clio on track just seemed to highlight how different the requirements are for a road car and a track car. I used to live in north Lincolnshire so handling, overtaking ability, etc. was very important to me. Nowadays I live in Yorkshire, most of my driving is on the motorway and a car that does 40mpg, can be left anywhere and doesn't need expensive tyres is more of a priority, but I would still like to have something as a toy. I don't see any point in having a car that has been engineered for easy day to day use and leaving it in the garage. Something purpose built for fun however seems much more acceptable.
Part of my reasoning for selling the Clio was that a hot hatch, like any sporty car derived from, and trying to retain the usability of something hum drum, must be a compromise over a car that has been engineered from scratch to be a sports car.
Using the Clio on track just seemed to highlight how different the requirements are for a road car and a track car. I used to live in north Lincolnshire so handling, overtaking ability, etc. was very important to me. Nowadays I live in Yorkshire, most of my driving is on the motorway and a car that does 40mpg, can be left anywhere and doesn't need expensive tyres is more of a priority, but I would still like to have something as a toy. I don't see any point in having a car that has been engineered for easy day to day use and leaving it in the garage. Something purpose built for fun however seems much more acceptable.
Part of my reasoning for selling the Clio was that a hot hatch, like any sporty car derived from, and trying to retain the usability of something hum drum, must be a compromise over a car that has been engineered from scratch to be a sports car.
I use an Elise, and would recommend it for the following reasons:
1) Running costs are pretty reasonable, 35-40 ish mpg, across a mixture of journey types
2) Routine maintenance/servicing is similar to a regular family car.
3) Take out the AA parts and labour warranty for 70 quid or so, to give you some insurance against hefty bills (some but not all)
4) Can fit our child seat in so can transport miniD around to/from child minders etc.
5) It has a boot, reasonable size, but as others have said the entry is pretty small so no large items. I can do a weekly shop in mine quite comfortably.
They aren't the fastest cars on the planet, many modern hot-hatches would give them a hard time, but as an overall package they're hard to beat.
Plenty of buyers guides kicking around, but I'd recommend buying on service/maintenance record rather than miles.
HTH.
1) Running costs are pretty reasonable, 35-40 ish mpg, across a mixture of journey types
2) Routine maintenance/servicing is similar to a regular family car.
3) Take out the AA parts and labour warranty for 70 quid or so, to give you some insurance against hefty bills (some but not all)
4) Can fit our child seat in so can transport miniD around to/from child minders etc.
5) It has a boot, reasonable size, but as others have said the entry is pretty small so no large items. I can do a weekly shop in mine quite comfortably.
They aren't the fastest cars on the planet, many modern hot-hatches would give them a hard time, but as an overall package they're hard to beat.
Plenty of buyers guides kicking around, but I'd recommend buying on service/maintenance record rather than miles.
HTH.
Edited by SeanyD on Wednesday 9th May 14:37
ks?SeanyD said:
I use an Elise, and would recommend it for the following reasons:
1) Running costs are pretty reasonable, 35-40 ish mpg, across a mixture of journey types
2) Routine maintenance/servicing is similar to a regular family car.
3) Take out the AA parts and labour warranty for 70 quid or so, to give you some insurance against hefty bills (some but not all)
4) Can fit our child seat in so can transport miniD around to/from child minders etc.
5) It has a boot, reasonable size, but as others have said the entry is pretty small so no large items. I can do a weekly shop in mine quite comfortably.
They aren't the fastest cars on the planet, many modern hot-hatches would give them a hard time, but as an overall package they're hard to beat.
Plenty of buyers guides kicking around, but I'd recommend buying on service/maintenance record rather than miles.
HTH.
Thanks for that!1) Running costs are pretty reasonable, 35-40 ish mpg, across a mixture of journey types
2) Routine maintenance/servicing is similar to a regular family car.
3) Take out the AA parts and labour warranty for 70 quid or so, to give you some insurance against hefty bills (some but not all)
4) Can fit our child seat in so can transport miniD around to/from child minders etc.
5) It has a boot, reasonable size, but as others have said the entry is pretty small so no large items. I can do a weekly shop in mine quite comfortably.
They aren't the fastest cars on the planet, many modern hot-hatches would give them a hard time, but as an overall package they're hard to beat.
Plenty of buyers guides kicking around, but I'd recommend buying on service/maintenance record rather than miles.
HTH.
What is the AA warranty that you mention?
kambites said:
It's much easier than the S1 Elise; very slightly easier than the early (long-tail) S2; and identical by the later (short-tail) S2.
Ok, given that I will probably want to get the roof off whenever possible, and am unlikely to be able to afford a later S2, does that alone not suggest I should be getting a VX rather than an Elise?FlashBastd said:
Ok, given that I will probably want to get the roof off whenever possible, and am unlikely to be able to afford a later S2, does that alone not suggest I should be getting a VX rather than an Elise?
Depends on you I suppose. The only real difference between the early S2 and VX220 is that you can't take the Elise's roof off from inside the car. You really do need to have a look at them. There's no point in trying to make a decision without first-hand experience of the cars in question. Ultimately my decision was pretty much made for me because I didn't get on with the brakes in the VX220 at all.
Edited by kambites on Wednesday 9th May 14:45
AA parts and labour warranty is just like any other 'independent' warranty, but cost is a lot more reasonable.
As has been suggested go and have a look at the various models / roof designs, s1 Elise I've heard to be a faff (not personally tried it), s2 long tail is easy enough (no longer than around a minute to do max), s2 short tail and vx even easier (around 30 secs to do)
As has been suggested go and have a look at the various models / roof designs, s1 Elise I've heard to be a faff (not personally tried it), s2 long tail is easy enough (no longer than around a minute to do max), s2 short tail and vx even easier (around 30 secs to do)
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