"Worrying" quality of current cars/vehicles (clocking)
Discussion
I currently have a Merc Sprinter Luton rental for moving. It's a 2007 57 with >241,000 miles on the clock. Quite common for vans to rack up massive miles these days, especially rentals.
Why worrying? Well, it drives perfectly apart from the odd rattle. Tidy it up a bit and wind the clock back and nobody would be any the wiser - I'm pretty sure it'll go on for a lot more miles without major issue!
Of course I don't know it's service history but I doubt rental firms would keep using them if they were throwing big bills at them at higher mileages.
So, how sure are you that the mileage on the vehicle you're buying is genuine?
Basically - is clocking more prevalent now than ever due to the quality of vehicles?
Why worrying? Well, it drives perfectly apart from the odd rattle. Tidy it up a bit and wind the clock back and nobody would be any the wiser - I'm pretty sure it'll go on for a lot more miles without major issue!
Of course I don't know it's service history but I doubt rental firms would keep using them if they were throwing big bills at them at higher mileages.
So, how sure are you that the mileage on the vehicle you're buying is genuine?
Basically - is clocking more prevalent now than ever due to the quality of vehicles?
Edited by Toaster Pilot on Monday 4th June 18:07
We (at work) have a Sprinter that the previous owner (we bought the business including the van) bought at about 5 years old with about 250k on it. It drove well but proceeded to have various expensive pieces fall off or break. Now at circa 380k it has had a recon engine and is basically shagged.
There was a thing on Fake Britain or something this morning regarding vans and it did get me thinking; it's bloody easy.
Take the Mercedes Sprinter and we'll go through how hard it ould be to pick up clocking;
Bodywork? It's a van, it'll get knocked from day one, resprays are common, so we can't spot it there.
The Seat? I'v sat in Mercs which have done 300k, they feel pretty much the same
Engine? I'd struggle to spot a 300k CDI from a 30k one, visually at least
Digital odo - impossible to tell if it's been tampered with.
I think it could very tricky to spot a well prep'd up clocked example
Take the Mercedes Sprinter and we'll go through how hard it ould be to pick up clocking;
Bodywork? It's a van, it'll get knocked from day one, resprays are common, so we can't spot it there.
The Seat? I'v sat in Mercs which have done 300k, they feel pretty much the same
Engine? I'd struggle to spot a 300k CDI from a 30k one, visually at least
Digital odo - impossible to tell if it's been tampered with.
I think it could very tricky to spot a well prep'd up clocked example
I'd certainly never buy a Ferrari or Lamborghini without assuming that it hadn't had regular haircuts.
Some years ago, I used to supply ex-lease S80s (that were usually a year/~40k miles old) to a local private hire firm, who'd come in very regularly to buy service kits for them. They'd run them for three years and dispose of them at auction with around 80k on and intermittent receipts for service parts as proof of history.
They were doing closer to 80kpa going by the number of services and frequency of cambelt, brake pad and disc changes. Looking at them, there was no significant wear that would lead one to assume you were looking at a 250-300k mile vehicle rather than an 80k one.
Then they started getting into leased S-Classes and 7 Series as they were very cheap to lease (at 10k mpa), run for that sort of mileage, clock and hand back to the finance co. for disposal. The cars were almost constantly running, doing either three 8 hour or two 12 hour shifts a day...
Some years ago, I used to supply ex-lease S80s (that were usually a year/~40k miles old) to a local private hire firm, who'd come in very regularly to buy service kits for them. They'd run them for three years and dispose of them at auction with around 80k on and intermittent receipts for service parts as proof of history.
They were doing closer to 80kpa going by the number of services and frequency of cambelt, brake pad and disc changes. Looking at them, there was no significant wear that would lead one to assume you were looking at a 250-300k mile vehicle rather than an 80k one.
Then they started getting into leased S-Classes and 7 Series as they were very cheap to lease (at 10k mpa), run for that sort of mileage, clock and hand back to the finance co. for disposal. The cars were almost constantly running, doing either three 8 hour or two 12 hour shifts a day...
base said:
I would say it happens more than most people would think to be honest. especically vehicles on lease hire vehicle which contracts are limited on mileage, if yougo over xxxx you pay per mile, good reason to clock something save yourself some money.
I don't think there's a coincidence between the increase of popularity of PCP and personal contract hire deals and the ready availability of "mileage correction services" via a slightly shady bloke with a laptop and an easily Google-able website.
Zwolf said:
base said:
I would say it happens more than most people would think to be honest. especically vehicles on lease hire vehicle which contracts are limited on mileage, if yougo over xxxx you pay per mile, good reason to clock something save yourself some money.
I don't think there's a coincidence between the increase of popularity of PCP and personal contract hire deals and the ready availability of "mileage correction services" via a slightly shady bloke with a laptop and an easily Google-able website.
Zwolf said:
I don't think there's a coincidence between the increase of popularity of PCP and personal contract hire deals and the ready availability of "mileage correction services" via a slightly shady bloke with a laptop and an easily Google-able website.
Not that I would, it's getting paid off before the final payment is due and I'll be keeping it
Interesting thread, does anyone have tips on how to spot a clocked car?
I'm pretty sure my last car had been clocked, it's just a feeling, nothing I can point to directly other than a bit of wear on the drivers seat, though not enough to know if it was just me being paranoid.
The stupid thing is that it was the car I wanted so would have probably bought it anyway, even if it had higher miles. Next time I buy it would be nice to avoid that niggling feeling of having been ripped off.
I'm pretty sure my last car had been clocked, it's just a feeling, nothing I can point to directly other than a bit of wear on the drivers seat, though not enough to know if it was just me being paranoid.
The stupid thing is that it was the car I wanted so would have probably bought it anyway, even if it had higher miles. Next time I buy it would be nice to avoid that niggling feeling of having been ripped off.
POORCARDEALER said:
Yep, the riskiest buy of all, lease cars on 3 x 10K miles, go back to the leasing company with 28K on or whatever, then sold through the auctions as 1 owner low mileage cars.
Presumeably the mileage would have to be corrected every year, otherwise the mileage recorded at services would be out of kilter.Zwolf said:
Then they started getting into leased S-Classes and 7 Series as they were very cheap to lease (at 10k mpa), run for that sort of mileage, clock and hand back to the finance co. for disposal. The cars were almost constantly running, doing either three 8 hour or two 12 hour shifts a day...
Deva Link said:
It's pretty dodgy clocking a Merc as the mileage is held in several places. They even record the mileage at which the oil level increases, so you can see when services have been done. Surely BMW must have similar capabilities?
How does one check this when stood in the auction hall, bidding as a dealer or trader for stock or as a private punter? Odometer readout is all you really have to go on at that point. The extent of dealer mileage checking in terms of sales admin is usually an HPI check with the current claimed mileage entered against the National Mileage Register. HPI indemnify the dealer to an extent for losses incurred due to errors in their data. If a car is clocked prior to each service and nothing flags up as unusual when the OBD is plugged in, then the technician accepts what the odo displays as correct. If an anomaly becomes apparent, the car would be traded out/disposed of at auction, hopefully to an independent dealer or trader who won't have access to dealer diagnostic equipment to be aware of the anomaly.
The only occassion a dealer would have to check all the various modules that record the mileage/fuel used/running hours etc. would generally a be an expensive manufacturer warranty claim for a component that shouldn't fail at the claimed current mileage.
Plus in theory if you can access the cars' systems to manipulate the odometer readout, then one can access the other modules wherein the mileage is stored too. Never underestimate the deviousness of the criminal mind and the lengths it'll go to...
As far as cars go its the suspension and ride quality that gives it away most often for me, followed by the interior.
Of course there is no easy way as a casual buyer to truly know if you are right, but most modern cars definitely develop signs of suspension and chassis wear at the 100k-150k mark. If they have had a refresh and been clocked then its mostly down to the interior to judge, good luck judging by anything to do with the engine assuming all is in working order, some are still improving at 80k.
Of course there is no easy way as a casual buyer to truly know if you are right, but most modern cars definitely develop signs of suspension and chassis wear at the 100k-150k mark. If they have had a refresh and been clocked then its mostly down to the interior to judge, good luck judging by anything to do with the engine assuming all is in working order, some are still improving at 80k.
Zwolf said:
Deva Link said:
It's pretty dodgy clocking a Merc as the mileage is held in several places. They even record the mileage at which the oil level increases, so you can see when services have been done. Surely BMW must have similar capabilities?
How does one check this when stood in the auction hall, bidding as a dealer or trader for stock or as a private punter? Odometer readout is all you really have to go on at that point. The extent of dealer mileage checking in terms of sales admin is usually an HPI check with the current claimed mileage entered against the National Mileage Register. HPI indemnify the dealer to an extent for losses incurred due to errors in their data. If a car is clocked prior to each service and nothing flags up as unusual when the OBD is plugged in, then the technician accepts what the odo displays as correct. If an anomaly becomes apparent, the car would be traded out/disposed of at auction, hopefully to an independent dealer or trader who won't have access to dealer diagnostic equipment to be aware of the anomaly.
The only occassion a dealer would have to check all the various modules that record the mileage/fuel used/running hours etc. would generally a be an expensive manufacturer warranty claim for a component that shouldn't fail at the claimed current mileage.
Plus in theory if you can access the cars' systems to manipulate the odometer readout, then one can access the other modules wherein the mileage is stored too. Never underestimate the deviousness of the criminal mind and the lengths it'll go to...
I know that Aston Martin's are regularly clocked in this way. Get an Aston on a 3k per anum lease, run as a daily car, drop the miles before each service and you're on to a winner. Who loses out? Not Aston Martin, they sell and maintain a car. Not the lease company, they make on the deal.
The loser is the guy who buys it 5 years down the line when the whole thing starts to feel a bit baggy. Until car companies and lease companies care, it'll continue
Zwolf said:
How does one check this when stood in the auction hall, bidding as a dealer or trader for stock or as a private punter?
...
Well they couldn't, but I was responding to you comment about a private hire firm clocking them and then handing back to the finance company. Be pretty easy for them to get the cars checked out and then present the customer with a stonking bill, and perhaps a prosection for deception which would probably result in whoever was held responsible being jailed....
Deva Link said:
POORCARDEALER said:
Yep, the riskiest buy of all, lease cars on 3 x 10K miles, go back to the leasing company with 28K on or whatever, then sold through the auctions as 1 owner low mileage cars.
Presumeably the mileage would have to be corrected every year, otherwise the mileage recorded at services would be out of kilter.Deva Link said:
Well they couldn't, but I was responding to you comment about a private hire firm clocking them and then handing back to the finance company. Be pretty easy for them to get the cars checked out and then present the customer with a stonking bill, and perhaps a prosection for deception which would probably result in whoever was held responsible being jailed.
Except they don't spend money getting the franchised dealer it's handed back to (which may be any of that manufacturer's dealers, not necessarily the supplying one) to check it fully - there'd be a cost involved in several hours on the diagnostics at least. When handed back to the dealer, it's usually given a typical salesman's appraisal and the mileage shown and present condition shown in line with the guidelines stated by the finance/lease co. as to whether any charges apply for excess mileage or excess wear and tear and if so, to collect and forward them at that point.
Dealer notifies the finance company that a car has been returned, a driver with a clipboard goes and collects it from the dealership it was handed back into (who don't own it, nor intend to, so won't inspect it), writes down the mileage at collection, then drives it straight to auction for trade disposal. The trader is told the current displayed mileage and mileages and dates recorded at services etc. and allows that to inform his bid accordingly with whichever degree of skepticism he sees fit to apply (ref POORCARDEALER's comments above).
Either the next dealer or trader buys it at auction (or indeed a private buyer if it's an open auction, often lease company/finance house disposals aren't, in large part due to this very reason), knowing only that the car is an ex-lease vehicle and that stated mileage is what it purports to be. They've bought a car in all clear conscience that it hasn't been clocked, then sell it as such.
If it comes to light, it's the eventual private buying suing the trader/dealer in a civil case for misrepresentation under the Trade Descriptions Act 1968 and/or EU legislation regarding unfair business practice, however if the dealer or trader can show no "guilty intent" as above, then little will come of it. The eventual private owner has no recourse to the people who did the clocking.
So it goes on. Do also note that it's not just businesses, dealers/traders engaging in this behaviour either by commission or unwitting complicity, private people are doing so quite deliberately in the sorts of numbers that make the number of people/businesses offering "mileage correction services" viable.
A quick Google shows the prevalence of such services, work out what they each charge for a "correction" and multiply that by how many customers would be needed to make a living and that may start to lend an idea of scale as to how relatively commonplace such things are.
Zwolf said:
Except they don't spend money getting the franchised dealer it's handed back to (which may be any of that manufacturer's dealers, not necessarily the supplying one) to check it fully - there'd be a cost involved in several hours on the diagnostics at least.
...
Thanks, I understand how the system works, but it would take only a few mins to put it on StarDiagnose and check all the mileages make sense....
Plus, and I used to run company cars to 120K miles and keep them in very good nick, I'm struggling to imagine that even on something like an S Class the difference between 30K and xxxK wouldn't be blindingly obvious.
I can only imagine the leasing companies muct know full well this goes on and choose to not recover what would be £10K+ in mileage charges because it would stop these people leasing again.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff