Power increases over the years - what does the future hold?
Discussion
Going back to the Early / mid 80's, the average 8v hot hatch had about 115bhp (Golf GTI / MG Maestro / Astra GTE / XR3i / 1.6 205GTi etc).
Quick saloons were at about 130bhp (Cavalier SRi etc).
In the late 80's when 16v became commonplace, 150bhp became the norm for hot hatches. We were all astounded by it ! Saloons were up to about 160bhp (405 MI 16).
Sierra Cosworths were out in front with 204bhp.
Fast forward (year 2000) and hot hatches were up to about 200bhp (generally due to turbocharging).
Quick saloons were up to 280bhp (Evo / Impreza etc).
Fast forward to today and hot hatches are rolling out with 300bhp (Focus RS mk II) and saloons with 400 bhp (Evo / Impreza).
So in 27 years the hot hatch has gone from 115bhp to 300, and performance saloons have gone from 130bhp to 400.
(I know there are cars out there with more power etc but am taking the norm / figures are for standard from the factory).
If this continues, in circa 10 years hot hatches will be up to about 400bhp and saloons 500bhp?
Where will we be in 20 years or has it more-or-less reached it's peak now?
Quick saloons were at about 130bhp (Cavalier SRi etc).
In the late 80's when 16v became commonplace, 150bhp became the norm for hot hatches. We were all astounded by it ! Saloons were up to about 160bhp (405 MI 16).
Sierra Cosworths were out in front with 204bhp.
Fast forward (year 2000) and hot hatches were up to about 200bhp (generally due to turbocharging).
Quick saloons were up to 280bhp (Evo / Impreza etc).
Fast forward to today and hot hatches are rolling out with 300bhp (Focus RS mk II) and saloons with 400 bhp (Evo / Impreza).
So in 27 years the hot hatch has gone from 115bhp to 300, and performance saloons have gone from 130bhp to 400.
(I know there are cars out there with more power etc but am taking the norm / figures are for standard from the factory).
If this continues, in circa 10 years hot hatches will be up to about 400bhp and saloons 500bhp?
Where will we be in 20 years or has it more-or-less reached it's peak now?
Edited by gsrgeoff on Monday 11th June 23:13
Except 300bhp isn't really the norm, it's a bit of an exception. I'd say hot hatch territory these days is 180-230bhp ish. About the same as cars were making 10 years ago. Hasn't gone, and won't go any further as it's not needed, I suspect expensive to develop, and most people want some kind of single cylinder solar powered disel now anyway.
djglover said:
swifthobo said:
yup agreed I think that's it now motoring has had its glory days and its all hybrids and green car b
ks now on in.
I agree, I think we are passing the peak, although fast petrol will get a bit more efficient before it dies away from new car salesks now on in.Don't forget these cars are also gaining weight with each generation.
I think they will try to bring this down in the future.
Benny
Weight reduction is the way forward. Cars have become very bloated but some manufacturers are already trying to reduce weight (Mazda, Peugeot).
Peugeot 205 kerbweight 740-935kg depending on engine
Peugeot 207 kerbweight 1050-1356kg depending on engine
Peugeot 208 kerbweight now heading back down: 975-1090kg
Peugeot 205 kerbweight 740-935kg depending on engine
Peugeot 207 kerbweight 1050-1356kg depending on engine
Peugeot 208 kerbweight now heading back down: 975-1090kg
jbi said:
FWD applications are starting to reach their practical limit IMO
I can see AWD and RWD gaining in popularity again.
FWD supposedly reached its limit at around 200BHP. TBH I can see the end of conventional AWD systems, most likely manufacturers will head towards one engine driven axle and one driven by an electric motor.I can see AWD and RWD gaining in popularity again.
The biggest increases must be with diesels currently. 15 years ago the average 2.0ish turbo diesel was pumping out maybe 75-90BHP, now that figure is anything from 140BHP onwards
Of course all these power increases have been needed due to increased vehicle weight.
one thing I cant see happening is cars getting lighter.
The US has recently introduced strict roof crush standards that mean reinforcing the a, b and c pillars.
I have no doubt that this will spread to other crash test agencies globally as new European cars sold in the US have to be modified with extra bracing to meet the new standards.
All cars will continue to get bigger, heavier and stronger as crash test standards get tougher.
More powerful motors will be needed to shift this bulk.
Take a look at the new Ford F-150, it comes with 400+hp from the factory
Or the Ford Mustang with it's 400+ horsepower and the shelby 660hp mustang showing that we can expect more power hikes in the future.
The US has recently introduced strict roof crush standards that mean reinforcing the a, b and c pillars.
I have no doubt that this will spread to other crash test agencies globally as new European cars sold in the US have to be modified with extra bracing to meet the new standards.
All cars will continue to get bigger, heavier and stronger as crash test standards get tougher.
More powerful motors will be needed to shift this bulk.
Take a look at the new Ford F-150, it comes with 400+hp from the factory
Or the Ford Mustang with it's 400+ horsepower and the shelby 660hp mustang showing that we can expect more power hikes in the future.
jbi said:
one thing I cant see happening is cars getting lighter.
The US has recently introduced strict roof crush standards that mean reinforcing the a, b and c pillars.
I have no doubt that this will spread to other crash test agencies globally as new European cars sold in the US have to be modified with extra bracing to meet the new standards.
All cars will continue to get bigger, heavier and stronger as crash test standards get tougher.
More powerful motors will be needed to shift this bulk.
Take a look at the new Ford F-150, it comes with 400+hp from the factory
Or the Ford Mustang with it's 400+ horsepower and the shelby 660hp mustang showing that we can expect more power hikes in the future.
There's a hard limit on weight in the UK, anyone my age and younger (32) cannot drive >3.5t without a second test. That effectively limits mass market cars to about 2-2.5t to allow for passengers and payload.The US has recently introduced strict roof crush standards that mean reinforcing the a, b and c pillars.
I have no doubt that this will spread to other crash test agencies globally as new European cars sold in the US have to be modified with extra bracing to meet the new standards.
All cars will continue to get bigger, heavier and stronger as crash test standards get tougher.
More powerful motors will be needed to shift this bulk.
Take a look at the new Ford F-150, it comes with 400+hp from the factory
Or the Ford Mustang with it's 400+ horsepower and the shelby 660hp mustang showing that we can expect more power hikes in the future.
The tech to keep the heaviest in the range below this limit will be used in the lightest in the range, and remember with less weight and size comes greater relative strength.
When Mazda offers the most economic, fun and fast hatches the rest of the industry will follow...
gsrgeoff said:
Going back to the Early / mid 80's, the average 8v hot hatch had about 115bhp (Golf GTI / MG Maestro / Astra GTE / XR3i / 1.6 205GTi etc).
Quick saloons were at about 130bhp (Cavalier SRi etc).
In the late 80's when 16v became commonplace, 150bhp became the norm for hot hatches. We were all astounded by it ! Saloons were up to about 160bhp (405 MI 16).
Sierra Cosworths were out in front with 204bhp.
Fast forward (year 2000) and hot hatches were up to about 200bhp (generally due to turbocharging).
Quick saloons were up to 280bhp (Evo / Impreza etc).
Fast forward to today and hot hatches are rolling out with 300bhp (Focus RS mk II) and saloons with 400 bhp (Evo / Impreza).
So in 27 years the hot hatch has gone from 115bhp to 300, and performance saloons have gone from 130bhp to 400.
(I know there are cars out there with more power etc but am taking the norm / figures are for standard from the factory).
If this continues, in circa 10 years hot hatches will be up to about 400bhp and saloons 500bhp?
Where will we be in 20 years or has it more-or-less reached it's peak now?
A Focus RS MK2 is bigger and heavier than a Sierra though. Don't let the hatchy shape fool you, it's no MK1 Golf competitor.Quick saloons were at about 130bhp (Cavalier SRi etc).
In the late 80's when 16v became commonplace, 150bhp became the norm for hot hatches. We were all astounded by it ! Saloons were up to about 160bhp (405 MI 16).
Sierra Cosworths were out in front with 204bhp.
Fast forward (year 2000) and hot hatches were up to about 200bhp (generally due to turbocharging).
Quick saloons were up to 280bhp (Evo / Impreza etc).
Fast forward to today and hot hatches are rolling out with 300bhp (Focus RS mk II) and saloons with 400 bhp (Evo / Impreza).
So in 27 years the hot hatch has gone from 115bhp to 300, and performance saloons have gone from 130bhp to 400.
(I know there are cars out there with more power etc but am taking the norm / figures are for standard from the factory).
If this continues, in circa 10 years hot hatches will be up to about 400bhp and saloons 500bhp?
Where will we be in 20 years or has it more-or-less reached it's peak now?
Edited by gsrgeoff on Monday 11th June 23:13
Also are we forgetting that in the 1960's in certain parts of the world 250-300hp was common place in coupes and sedans. Even after the switch to SAE Net power ratings some of the early mid 70's stuff was seriously quick with 270-400hp on offer.
Less frequent through the late 70's and 80's, but it was still there. So maybe it's more about the rest of the world just catching up with a certain other country?
daemonoid said:
There's a hard limit on weight in the UK, anyone my age and younger (32) cannot drive >3.5t without a second test. That effectively limits mass market cars to about 2-2.5t to allow for passengers and payload.
The tech to keep the heaviest in the range below this limit will be used in the lightest in the range, and remember with less weight and size comes greater relative strength.
When Mazda offers the most economic, fun and fast hatches the rest of the industry will follow...
Indeed... though I can see the "hard limit" being massaged at some point in the future as the mainstream SUV's and pickups are already flirting with the limit.The tech to keep the heaviest in the range below this limit will be used in the lightest in the range, and remember with less weight and size comes greater relative strength.
When Mazda offers the most economic, fun and fast hatches the rest of the industry will follow...
The weight and size issue also comes down to the expectations of the buyer.
The average consumer is physically bigger than 20 years ago and wants the elbow room. He also wants a plenty of luxuries, electric this and that, even in the smallest cars on the market.
It IS possible to reduce weight by using composites and other exotic materials but this results in uncompetitive prices
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