All things being equal, what happens if you drop susp 25mm?
Discussion
unfortunately all things aren't equal.......
In the real world, dropping a car by 25mm without any further reoptimisation is very likely to degrade both the handling and the ultimate road holding capabilties of a modern car. Sure, 25 years ago, when cars were "up on stilts" and the Ride and Handling sign off consisted of a quick trip down the pub on a friday afternoon to check none of the wheels fall off, then maybe you would see some improvements. These days, when it is the responsibility of a team of ~50 highly trained and experience engineers with 3 years of develpment and a budget of several millions of pounds, frankly you're just gonna F**k it up!
In the real world, dropping a car by 25mm without any further reoptimisation is very likely to degrade both the handling and the ultimate road holding capabilties of a modern car. Sure, 25 years ago, when cars were "up on stilts" and the Ride and Handling sign off consisted of a quick trip down the pub on a friday afternoon to check none of the wheels fall off, then maybe you would see some improvements. These days, when it is the responsibility of a team of ~50 highly trained and experience engineers with 3 years of develpment and a budget of several millions of pounds, frankly you're just gonna F**k it up!
? well max has coverd all that you would need other modifications to the suspension to put it back to the stock geometry and as others have said you need dampers to match the shorter (and often stiffer springs) I have my car lowered but I also have a set of adjustable dampers etc to compensate for the lower stiffer suspension.
One of the first things I do when I buy any car is to stick 35mm lowering springs in it.
I've never been into the whole dub scene or 'decking' it.
Although, sticking lowering springs in is a waste of time if your shocks are knackered.
If you really want to fit lowering springs, I'd recommend combining it with a set of gas shocks. IMO KYB gas are the best budget shocks on the market.
I've never been into the whole dub scene or 'decking' it.
Although, sticking lowering springs in is a waste of time if your shocks are knackered.
If you really want to fit lowering springs, I'd recommend combining it with a set of gas shocks. IMO KYB gas are the best budget shocks on the market.
Depends on how the drop is achieved. If it's done properly, reduced ride height is beneficial to handling and road holding. However, 100% of the lowered road cars I'm familiar with have not been 'done properly' and suffer with an overlly stuff ride, nasty bump steer, excessive camber, bad tyre wear, bad balance etc etc.
Max_Torque said:
unfortunately all things aren't equal.......
In the real world, dropping a car by 25mm without any further reoptimisation is very likely to degrade both the handling and the ultimate road holding capabilties of a modern car. Sure, 25 years ago, when cars were "up on stilts" and the Ride and Handling sign off consisted of a quick trip down the pub on a friday afternoon to check none of the wheels fall off, then maybe you would see some improvements. These days, when it is the responsibility of a team of ~50 highly trained and experience engineers with 3 years of develpment and a budget of several millions of pounds, frankly you're just gonna F**k it up!
Exactly correct.In the real world, dropping a car by 25mm without any further reoptimisation is very likely to degrade both the handling and the ultimate road holding capabilties of a modern car. Sure, 25 years ago, when cars were "up on stilts" and the Ride and Handling sign off consisted of a quick trip down the pub on a friday afternoon to check none of the wheels fall off, then maybe you would see some improvements. These days, when it is the responsibility of a team of ~50 highly trained and experience engineers with 3 years of develpment and a budget of several millions of pounds, frankly you're just gonna F**k it up!
Which I say from the position of lowering an A4 by 30mm several years ago, but now having just finished the second year of an automotive engineering degree.
If you don't bugger the handling and do manage to reduce body roll, which is quite possible through the increased stiffness you achieve, you'll almost invariably ruin the ride and see a massive increase in the wear rate of all the relevant components which weren't designed to take the loads that are now being expected of them.
McSam said:
Exactly correct.
Which I say from the position of lowering an A4 by 30mm several years ago, but now having just finished the second year of an automotive engineering degree.
If you don't bugger the handling and do manage to reduce body roll, which is quite possible through the increased stiffness you achieve, you'll almost invariably ruin the ride and see a massive increase in the wear rate of all the relevant components which weren't designed to take the loads that are now being expected of them.
+1 The idea that the owner can "engineer" his car better than the manufacturer is pretty far fetched. It's easy enough to "change" things but tricky to "improve" them. All set-up is a compromise. IMO the vast majority of modifications are done for looks or sound, with claimed performance gains often illusory.Which I say from the position of lowering an A4 by 30mm several years ago, but now having just finished the second year of an automotive engineering degree.
If you don't bugger the handling and do manage to reduce body roll, which is quite possible through the increased stiffness you achieve, you'll almost invariably ruin the ride and see a massive increase in the wear rate of all the relevant components which weren't designed to take the loads that are now being expected of them.
I agree, Ozzie, you've summed it up nicely.
There are so many compromises in play that by improving one aspect, you'll almost certainly bugger up three others that you might not even have thought of! The only way you can improve things, by which I mean tailor them slightly closer to your specific needs, is by small adjustments. If, for example, you have a slightly soft saloon that you want to tighten up a little, the simple expedient of damping adjustment can help with that.
But dropping something and knackering all the expensively engineering geometry is very rarely the way forward! Aesthetic only, though admittedly in that regard it can be excellent.
There are so many compromises in play that by improving one aspect, you'll almost certainly bugger up three others that you might not even have thought of! The only way you can improve things, by which I mean tailor them slightly closer to your specific needs, is by small adjustments. If, for example, you have a slightly soft saloon that you want to tighten up a little, the simple expedient of damping adjustment can help with that.
But dropping something and knackering all the expensively engineering geometry is very rarely the way forward! Aesthetic only, though admittedly in that regard it can be excellent.
Edited by McSam on Sunday 1st July 16:39
jjr1 said:
Cheers guys for the replies. I have never fiddled with suspension before on any car I have owned but am curious whether I could lower a Toyota GT86 without it being detrimental to the cars handling.
Apparently not !
Looks like I may need some professional help in this matter.
The suspension on those has been designed around fairly soft springing, firm damping, and relatively long suspension travel since that's the best way of getting a car to handle predictably near the limit. Dropping it (and presumably fitting firmer lowering springs at the same time) will make it feel a lot more skittish which is no good at all for driving enthusiastically.Apparently not !
Looks like I may need some professional help in this matter.
I've been thinking about a Bilstein/Eibach suspension set for my E36 M3. Drops by 25mm at the front, 15mm at the back so not horrendous.
Is this < or > than simply using lowering springs? I don't particularly feel the need to lower it, but suspect that the standard suspension is now rather tired after 13yrs/110k miles and it would make a big difference to handling.
Is this < or > than simply using lowering springs? I don't particularly feel the need to lower it, but suspect that the standard suspension is now rather tired after 13yrs/110k miles and it would make a big difference to handling.
carreauchompeur said:
I've been thinking about a Bilstein/Eibach suspension set for my E36 M3. Drops by 25mm at the front, 15mm at the back so not horrendous.
Is this < or > than simply using lowering springs? I don't particularly feel the need to lower it, but suspect that the standard suspension is now rather tired after 13yrs/110k miles and it would make a big difference to handling.
If you really want to do it, using a full kit is a million times better, and a decent way of going, but I would uprate all the suspension bushes for polyuerethane ones while I was doing it.Is this < or > than simply using lowering springs? I don't particularly feel the need to lower it, but suspect that the standard suspension is now rather tired after 13yrs/110k miles and it would make a big difference to handling.
McSam said:
carreauchompeur said:
I've been thinking about a Bilstein/Eibach suspension set for my E36 M3. Drops by 25mm at the front, 15mm at the back so not horrendous.
Is this < or > than simply using lowering springs? I don't particularly feel the need to lower it, but suspect that the standard suspension is now rather tired after 13yrs/110k miles and it would make a big difference to handling.
If you really want to do it, using a full kit is a million times better, and a decent way of going, but I would uprate all the suspension bushes for polyuerethane ones while I was doing it.Is this < or > than simply using lowering springs? I don't particularly feel the need to lower it, but suspect that the standard suspension is now rather tired after 13yrs/110k miles and it would make a big difference to handling.
The one proviso I'm going to stick in here is that when the car maker designs and builds the car he has to incorporate a world of compromises for different markets and customer tastes.
It's probably fair to guess that a car like an A4 was probably designed and engineered to be a repmobile or a cruiser for the private buyer, intended to cover distance in pretty good comfort on most road surfaces it might encounter from Dusseldorf to Dumfries.
If YOUR priority is handling or performance - or even achieving ultimate smoothness - there is no reason why removing some of the manufacturers compromise MUST be a bad thing provided you go into it knowing that, for example, to get flatter cornering means you will feel more bumps.
It's probably fair to guess that a car like an A4 was probably designed and engineered to be a repmobile or a cruiser for the private buyer, intended to cover distance in pretty good comfort on most road surfaces it might encounter from Dusseldorf to Dumfries.
If YOUR priority is handling or performance - or even achieving ultimate smoothness - there is no reason why removing some of the manufacturers compromise MUST be a bad thing provided you go into it knowing that, for example, to get flatter cornering means you will feel more bumps.
HustleRussell said:
McSam said:
carreauchompeur said:
I've been thinking about a Bilstein/Eibach suspension set for my E36 M3
If you really want to do it, using a full kit is a million times better, and a decent way of going, but I would uprate all the suspension bushes for polyuerethane ones while I was doing it.Need to do the rear bushes/diff carrier as they are knackered anyway. Need a minor lottery win. Why do good cars turn into never ending "to do" lists?
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff