4WD - vital tool or nannying traction control?
Poll: 4WD - vital tool or nannying traction control?
Total Members Polled: 150
Discussion
Hello,
Elsewhere on the forum someone mentioned Mitsubishi Evos. I used to lust after 4WD rally reps. Proper Quattros, Integrales, Celica GT4s, RS200s, that sort of thing. I badly wanted an R32 Skyline GTR when they came out.
Traction control seems to be pretty much viewed as nannying and uneccessary on most road cars. Certainly cars I've driven with traction control have all taken power away when I wanted it, and never saved me from using more power than I wanted.
Obviously 4WD give you much more traction, and unlike TC it gives you traction without taking power away. It's better than TC, obviously, and Ken Block wouldn't be able to do some of those amazing skids without it. But is 4WD in road cars really anything other than a safety net for fumblefooted drivers? I've driven 300bhp FWD cars and I've driven 400bhp RWD cars. In both cases though you'd have to wait for a straight bit of road before flooring it, and maybe I'm missing out on some corner exit acceleration fun.
I no longer lust after 4WD rally reps, but I feel bad about it. If I was given a GTR the first thing I'd do would be pull the fabled fuse that makes it RWD. It's not how fast I get there, it's how much fun it was, and it seems to me that having to be careful with the loud pedal adds to the fun. It may be I'm just too old for ultimate speed, or it may be I'm too mature to be so easily satisfied. I dunno, I've got no objectivity.
I've been guilty of judging owners of 911 C4s as "scared of driving". But to be honest my experience of 4WD is limited to proper off roaders, so it could be I'm missing out on an extra dimension of high performance motoring just by being a luddite.
Vote for road cars only please, I've driven a Unimog so I know 4WD is handy off road.
Elsewhere on the forum someone mentioned Mitsubishi Evos. I used to lust after 4WD rally reps. Proper Quattros, Integrales, Celica GT4s, RS200s, that sort of thing. I badly wanted an R32 Skyline GTR when they came out.
Traction control seems to be pretty much viewed as nannying and uneccessary on most road cars. Certainly cars I've driven with traction control have all taken power away when I wanted it, and never saved me from using more power than I wanted.
Obviously 4WD give you much more traction, and unlike TC it gives you traction without taking power away. It's better than TC, obviously, and Ken Block wouldn't be able to do some of those amazing skids without it. But is 4WD in road cars really anything other than a safety net for fumblefooted drivers? I've driven 300bhp FWD cars and I've driven 400bhp RWD cars. In both cases though you'd have to wait for a straight bit of road before flooring it, and maybe I'm missing out on some corner exit acceleration fun.
I no longer lust after 4WD rally reps, but I feel bad about it. If I was given a GTR the first thing I'd do would be pull the fabled fuse that makes it RWD. It's not how fast I get there, it's how much fun it was, and it seems to me that having to be careful with the loud pedal adds to the fun. It may be I'm just too old for ultimate speed, or it may be I'm too mature to be so easily satisfied. I dunno, I've got no objectivity.
I've been guilty of judging owners of 911 C4s as "scared of driving". But to be honest my experience of 4WD is limited to proper off roaders, so it could be I'm missing out on an extra dimension of high performance motoring just by being a luddite.
Vote for road cars only please, I've driven a Unimog so I know 4WD is handy off road.
I think it's just a question of personal taste.
Personally I'd always take RWD over 4WD because I value steering purity more than traction; however, I could quite understand why someone would love the feeling that a powerful 4WD car gives coming out of a corner. Plus of course a really well setup 4WD system does make it easier to get close to the limits.
Personally I'd always take RWD over 4WD because I value steering purity more than traction; however, I could quite understand why someone would love the feeling that a powerful 4WD car gives coming out of a corner. Plus of course a really well setup 4WD system does make it easier to get close to the limits.
I don't think any of the answers fit the thinking of most people.
In performance based cars, people think about the presence of 4WD secondary to the performance of the car. And clearly cars like the 911 Turbo and GTR are so awesomely capable cross-country tools because of the grip and security they display. 4WD is just the means to that particular end.
For most people, 4WD is an option that a small minority want because they have occasion when it will be useful - such as living in the sticks, towing a horse box, etc...
In my neck of the woods, Audi Quattro estates outnumber BMW estates 10-1 simply because horsey types perceive the 4WD to be useful occasionally.
In performance based cars, people think about the presence of 4WD secondary to the performance of the car. And clearly cars like the 911 Turbo and GTR are so awesomely capable cross-country tools because of the grip and security they display. 4WD is just the means to that particular end.
For most people, 4WD is an option that a small minority want because they have occasion when it will be useful - such as living in the sticks, towing a horse box, etc...
In my neck of the woods, Audi Quattro estates outnumber BMW estates 10-1 simply because horsey types perceive the 4WD to be useful occasionally.
It depends on your personal preference.
Numerous times I've seen people describe a certain type of car as being "more fun" than another type. But what is "fun" for one person, isn't for another.
Personally I like out right point to point pace, and 4WD is essential for this on country roads. (I have a tuned Evo).
Other people would find it too boring, because you can't get the back end out so easily, and you don't have to tip toe around the throttle. They find fun in a careful control of the car, even though ultimate pace is slower. That's fine, live and let live!
No one has a right to tell someone else that their personal preference in this matter is wrong, or less worthy. So in answer to the OP, the correct response is: depends who you ask.
Numerous times I've seen people describe a certain type of car as being "more fun" than another type. But what is "fun" for one person, isn't for another.
Personally I like out right point to point pace, and 4WD is essential for this on country roads. (I have a tuned Evo).
Other people would find it too boring, because you can't get the back end out so easily, and you don't have to tip toe around the throttle. They find fun in a careful control of the car, even though ultimate pace is slower. That's fine, live and let live!
No one has a right to tell someone else that their personal preference in this matter is wrong, or less worthy. So in answer to the OP, the correct response is: depends who you ask.
toppstuff said:
I don't think any of the answers fit the thinking of most people.
In performance based cars, people think about the presence of 4WD secondary to the performance of the car. And clearly cars like the 911 Turbo and GTR are so awesomely capable cross-country tools because of the grip and security they display. 4WD is just the means to that particular end.
Poll option "4WD is for making fast cars easier to drive". Take the 4WD away from a 911 Turbo and you get a GT2 don't you? I'm not an expert in 911s, so I could be wrong.In performance based cars, people think about the presence of 4WD secondary to the performance of the car. And clearly cars like the 911 Turbo and GTR are so awesomely capable cross-country tools because of the grip and security they display. 4WD is just the means to that particular end.
toppstuff said:
For most people, 4WD is an option that a small minority want because they have occasion when it will be useful - such as living in the sticks, towing a horse box, etc...
In my neck of the woods, Audi Quattro estates outnumber BMW estates 10-1 simply because horsey types perceive the 4WD to be useful occasionally.
Option for horsey people added. Towist and caravanners can use that option too.In my neck of the woods, Audi Quattro estates outnumber BMW estates 10-1 simply because horsey types perceive the 4WD to be useful occasionally.
It is fantastic on my Dad's car in the writer - he does a lot of driving to remote and rural parts of Scotland throughout the year and on some occasions would have had great difficulty making it back had he bought a 3 series instead.
To be fair, he is not really into driving cars on the limit or anything like that, but the car does drive very well I think.
It certainly has its place, and it will be interesting to see how well my E46 does in comparison come winter time.
To be fair, he is not really into driving cars on the limit or anything like that, but the car does drive very well I think.
It certainly has its place, and it will be interesting to see how well my E46 does in comparison come winter time.
mrmr96 said:
It depends on your personal preference.
Numerous times I've seen people describe a certain type of car as being "more fun" than another type. But what is "fun" for one person, isn't for another.
Personally I like out right point to point pace, and 4WD is essential for this on country roads. (I have a tuned Evo).
Other people would find it too boring, because you can't get the back end out so easily, and you don't have to tip toe around the throttle. They find fun in a careful control of the car, even though ultimate pace is slower. That's fine, live and let live!
No one has a right to tell someone else that their personal preference in this matter is wrong, or less worthy. So in answer to the OP, the correct response is: depends who you ask.
This (from the opposing view). While the reassurance of awd if you need to get somewhere in adverse conditions is a hell of a bonus, ultimately I find it unsatisfying.Numerous times I've seen people describe a certain type of car as being "more fun" than another type. But what is "fun" for one person, isn't for another.
Personally I like out right point to point pace, and 4WD is essential for this on country roads. (I have a tuned Evo).
Other people would find it too boring, because you can't get the back end out so easily, and you don't have to tip toe around the throttle. They find fun in a careful control of the car, even though ultimate pace is slower. That's fine, live and let live!
No one has a right to tell someone else that their personal preference in this matter is wrong, or less worthy. So in answer to the OP, the correct response is: depends who you ask.
mrmr96 said:
It depends on your personal preference.
Numerous times I've seen people describe a certain type of car as being "more fun" than another type. But what is "fun" for one person, isn't for another.
Personally I like out right point to point pace, and 4WD is essential for this on country roads. (I have a tuned Evo).
Other people would find it too boring, because you can't get the back end out so easily, and you don't have to tip toe around the throttle. They find fun in a careful control of the car, even though ultimate pace is slower. That's fine, live and let live!
No one has a right to tell someone else that their personal preference in this matter is wrong, or less worthy. So in answer to the OP, the correct response is: depends who you ask.
Brilliant post!Numerous times I've seen people describe a certain type of car as being "more fun" than another type. But what is "fun" for one person, isn't for another.
Personally I like out right point to point pace, and 4WD is essential for this on country roads. (I have a tuned Evo).
Other people would find it too boring, because you can't get the back end out so easily, and you don't have to tip toe around the throttle. They find fun in a careful control of the car, even though ultimate pace is slower. That's fine, live and let live!
No one has a right to tell someone else that their personal preference in this matter is wrong, or less worthy. So in answer to the OP, the correct response is: depends who you ask.
I have had car based 4WD, RWD, FWD, offroady type 4x4's and now drive a Legacy Twin Turbo Estate (4WD again)... It is amazing the grip it gives.. See a gap in traffic trying to get out onto a fast "A" road, wet or dry - you can get in it! The estate comes in handy for family duties and I am semi rural so 4WD will be a benefit in winter - but overall, I prefer a fast 4WD than anything else I have driven...
I liked our old Impreza. It was a 123bhp estate with hi/lo transfer box on M+S marked tyres. I could throw my fishing gear in the back and drive it down farm tracks and into fields without getting stuck, and it was unstoppable in the snow and ice. It's a shame that the Saab we replaced it with isn't 4wd for that reason. Beyond that, though, I don't really care. I don't really feel the need to drive any faster cross country than I can in our 2wd cars, and speed through bends is more often constrained by how far I can see than by how much grip or traction I have.
I think different people have preferences as to what their car does at the limit of traction mid-corner.
Some like the rear to break traction with a prod of the throttle
Some like to barrel in and drive it out with the front wheels scrabbling.
Some like to barrel in and plant it and let the car deal with the traction part.
It's horses for courses, but I certainly prefer the rear to break traction more easily since I feel it requires much more of a connection between car and driver, which is what makes it fun on the road. I've not tried to powerslide a 4WD car on the road, but I would imagine you'd have to provoke it way, way more than you would a decent RWD car.
Some like the rear to break traction with a prod of the throttle
Some like to barrel in and drive it out with the front wheels scrabbling.
Some like to barrel in and plant it and let the car deal with the traction part.
It's horses for courses, but I certainly prefer the rear to break traction more easily since I feel it requires much more of a connection between car and driver, which is what makes it fun on the road. I've not tried to powerslide a 4WD car on the road, but I would imagine you'd have to provoke it way, way more than you would a decent RWD car.
Prof Beard said:
I have a C4S - I've had fast FWD and RWD cars too. I enjoy driving (duh! wouldn't be on here if I didn't I hope) but have never understood why, for some people, "trying not to crash" is "fun". I love the C4S, I can make good progress in a secure manner...
Same here, and having driven home in my XC90 on snow-bound back roads when the M11 was closed a couple of years ago, I can recommend 4WD in that application too. Can depend on the car.
The great AWD system makes the Evo the car that it is. You find fun in the way it can deploy its power and also in the way that it uses the AYC rear diff to resist understeer (less understeer than some RWD cars in my experience!).
That said, if I owned a Elise I wouldn't want it AWD, just like I wouldn't want a FWD or RWD Evo.
The great AWD system makes the Evo the car that it is. You find fun in the way it can deploy its power and also in the way that it uses the AYC rear diff to resist understeer (less understeer than some RWD cars in my experience!).
That said, if I owned a Elise I wouldn't want it AWD, just like I wouldn't want a FWD or RWD Evo.
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