What do emissions really have to do with road tax?
Discussion
Ok, so our current government hates cars. Simple. Everything that is supposedly high emissions gets taxed to hell - hence why cars like the lovely RX8 has depreciated like a stone.
Now my trusty old mint condition Puma (really, it is!!) get's me 45mpg on the commute if I don't belt it, the other half's Mito does around the same. The 12 year old Puma, which costs nothing to run other than a service and MOT each year costs around £220 a year to tax, the Mito £90. If they both do the same MPG, how come the Puma is classed as 'dirtier'? Is it really?
I know that the taxation rules have moved somewhat since the Puma was new, and it's not in the same banding, but in my simple mind, for every mile I go in either car, I use the same amount of fuel (roughly), so are the emissions the same?
Obviously, if I cane either one, MPG goes down, I fill up more often and pay more fuel duty - that sounds fair as I can control my foot. Road tax? A scam I don't understand!!!
Any thoughts, are two cars doing the same MPG cleaner or dirtier than each other?
Now my trusty old mint condition Puma (really, it is!!) get's me 45mpg on the commute if I don't belt it, the other half's Mito does around the same. The 12 year old Puma, which costs nothing to run other than a service and MOT each year costs around £220 a year to tax, the Mito £90. If they both do the same MPG, how come the Puma is classed as 'dirtier'? Is it really?
I know that the taxation rules have moved somewhat since the Puma was new, and it's not in the same banding, but in my simple mind, for every mile I go in either car, I use the same amount of fuel (roughly), so are the emissions the same?
Obviously, if I cane either one, MPG goes down, I fill up more often and pay more fuel duty - that sounds fair as I can control my foot. Road tax? A scam I don't understand!!!
Any thoughts, are two cars doing the same MPG cleaner or dirtier than each other?
Manufacturers have got better at tailoring their cars to the EU economy test.
Personally, I'd rather see fuel VED removed and fuel duty upped to meet the shortfall, but plenty of people probably wouldn't.
To be fair, the newer car probably is cleaner, just not in terms of CO2. It'll be much better in terms of nitrous oxides, etc.
Personally, I'd rather see fuel VED removed and fuel duty upped to meet the shortfall, but plenty of people probably wouldn't.
To be fair, the newer car probably is cleaner, just not in terms of CO2. It'll be much better in terms of nitrous oxides, etc.
What kambites said. If you burn the same amount of fuel, the CO2 released will be roughly the same, with some allowance made for the efficiency of burning. Less efficient burning results in less CO2 out per unit fuel in, but more nasties like particulates or CO - both of which are far nastier than CO2.
Road tax/VED strikes me as a great example of how a government can't bear to abandon a tax long after it has ceased to be relevant or useful (compare to early 1930s, when cars were the preserve of the rich, and wreaking havoc upon a network not designed to cope with them, forcing motorists to pay a fund for road upkeep made sense. Now, when it just goes into a general pot, and just about everyone has or indirectly benefits from car use, it doesn't).
Road tax/VED strikes me as a great example of how a government can't bear to abandon a tax long after it has ceased to be relevant or useful (compare to early 1930s, when cars were the preserve of the rich, and wreaking havoc upon a network not designed to cope with them, forcing motorists to pay a fund for road upkeep made sense. Now, when it just goes into a general pot, and just about everyone has or indirectly benefits from car use, it doesn't).
The govt doesn't hate cars. In fact the absolute opposite. The govt loves cars.
All taxes are designed to raise the most money without killing the golden goose or triggering social unrest.
Ergo, people with cara that consume more fuel are indicating that they have surplus spending power and also fall into a generally benign social group. This means you can tax this group more.
At the same time, you want to generate tax receipts from sales transactions so you create a tax structure which seemingly benefits buying new cars but in reality generates more tax income.
All taxes are designed to raise the most money without killing the golden goose or triggering social unrest.
Ergo, people with cara that consume more fuel are indicating that they have surplus spending power and also fall into a generally benign social group. This means you can tax this group more.
At the same time, you want to generate tax receipts from sales transactions so you create a tax structure which seemingly benefits buying new cars but in reality generates more tax income.
If the idea of the goverments is to steer people away from high co2 cars they really have got their maths wrong.
The amount of c02 from say a 458 may be 3 times more than a eco car of 100g co2, yet there are far less 458s or similar than eco cars, and the high performance cars with more co2 are driven far far less than a normal car. Im quite sure You will struggle to find even a f430 with more than 60k on the clock.
In 2011 3.2 percent of cars registered were over 200kg, let alone say high performance cars.
Goverments need to pressure companies to ensure all high selling models (fiestas focus, micras ect) are all in the under 100g mark. Even with Hot hatch models, small coupes and super cars, the impact would be far better than attacking the very few who actaully cause far less damage than those driving 10k a year in a 1.4 corsa. Upping the price on a car that is already expensive to own and run will not put off those who want a zo6 or Scud, but ensuring normal people with no interest in cars drive twin airs and ecoboosts rather than the mid range 1.8s is far better for the enviroment.
And thats the idea right?
The amount of c02 from say a 458 may be 3 times more than a eco car of 100g co2, yet there are far less 458s or similar than eco cars, and the high performance cars with more co2 are driven far far less than a normal car. Im quite sure You will struggle to find even a f430 with more than 60k on the clock.
In 2011 3.2 percent of cars registered were over 200kg, let alone say high performance cars.
Goverments need to pressure companies to ensure all high selling models (fiestas focus, micras ect) are all in the under 100g mark. Even with Hot hatch models, small coupes and super cars, the impact would be far better than attacking the very few who actaully cause far less damage than those driving 10k a year in a 1.4 corsa. Upping the price on a car that is already expensive to own and run will not put off those who want a zo6 or Scud, but ensuring normal people with no interest in cars drive twin airs and ecoboosts rather than the mid range 1.8s is far better for the enviroment.
And thats the idea right?
Lordglenmorangie said:
Did I hear right, when Top Gear did a road test on the 997 Turbo, Clarkson said the exhaust fumes leaving the car where cleaner than the air in a city going in.
Just received my road tax renewal at £475.00 oh joy
I would pay money to see Clarkson breath the air coming out the back of a 997 Turbo for 5 minutes. I imagine he would change his tune after that.Just received my road tax renewal at £475.00 oh joy
Lordglenmorangie said:
Just received my road tax renewal at £475.00 oh joy
Ha ha.. Just got mine... £460.What annoys me is that just because of the timing of when my Mazda 6 MPS was made, I have to pay £200 more than the same car registered a few months earlier. WTF has THAT got to do with CO2 emissions?
In fact the same engine in the Mazda 3 MPS, now produces 224g co2/km. How convenient that they have managed to retune the ECU to fall just under the band K limit.
garycat said:
Lordglenmorangie said:
Just received my road tax renewal at £475.00 oh joy
Ha ha.. Just got mine... £460.What annoys me is that just because of the timing of when my Mazda 6 MPS was made, I have to pay £200 more than the same car registered a few months earlier. WTF has THAT got to do with CO2 emissions?
In fact the same engine in the Mazda 3 MPS, now produces 224g co2/km. How convenient that they have managed to retune the ECU to fall just under the band K limit.
kambites said:
Lordglenmorangie said:
Did I hear right, when Top Gear did a road test on the 997 Turbo, Clarkson said the exhaust fumes leaving the car where cleaner than the air in a city going in.
That sounds like the kind of rubbish that Clarkson would spout, certainly. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KgH6WT1paU
otolith said:
kambites said:
Lordglenmorangie said:
Did I hear right, when Top Gear did a road test on the 997 Turbo, Clarkson said the exhaust fumes leaving the car where cleaner than the air in a city going in.
That sounds like the kind of rubbish that Clarkson would spout, certainly. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KgH6WT1paU
Cotty said:
I have a 325i BMW E30. It would pass a cat test but it does not have a cat. I runs super lean. But because its built before the new regs came in it get lumped with £240 tax a year. If it was 20 years older it would not pay tax at all.
My '91 325i-based Alpina is €1005pa here in Ireland, my '03 CSL €1683pa. And roads are in a complete messgarycat said:
Lordglenmorangie said:
Just received my road tax renewal at £475.00 oh joy
Ha ha.. Just got mine... £460.What annoys me is that just because of the timing of when my Mazda 6 MPS was made, I have to pay £200 more than the same car registered a few months earlier. WTF has THAT got to do with CO2 emissions?
In fact the same engine in the Mazda 3 MPS, now produces 224g co2/km. How convenient that they have managed to retune the ECU to fall just under the band K limit.
ked up!Ive just taxed my new car last month for the first time (nissan GTR) and that was band M £475.The thing that pisses me off is that it is actually quite a bit more economical than my old BMW E46 M3 believe it or not and being a much newer car probably cleaner too......Yet that was only band J £250 a year to tax???Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff