Do any cars not have PAS nowadays ?
Discussion
As per the title, last one I had was a MK2 Golf GTI.
With all the complaints about electric PAS, is there any reason for it to always be fitted, our C1 has it, cant imagine weighing 800 odd kilos with 155 tyres it needs it, have we really got that feeble ?
The Golf was heavy at parking speeds but was fantastic at speed, my mum used to have an Austin Princess without it and the look on her face whilst berthing that thing was a sight to be hold, a grimace of sheer effort with a cig bobbing around as she ground her teeth with the effort.
Could the wider adoption of PAS be responsible for the Bingo Wing epidemic ?
With all the complaints about electric PAS, is there any reason for it to always be fitted, our C1 has it, cant imagine weighing 800 odd kilos with 155 tyres it needs it, have we really got that feeble ?
The Golf was heavy at parking speeds but was fantastic at speed, my mum used to have an Austin Princess without it and the look on her face whilst berthing that thing was a sight to be hold, a grimace of sheer effort with a cig bobbing around as she ground her teeth with the effort.
Could the wider adoption of PAS be responsible for the Bingo Wing epidemic ?
Car steering geometry nowadays is such that when the steering is turned, the outer wheel jacks up significantly. I think this is due to the way that camber is introduced as the steering lock is increased, leading to crisper handling. It's quite noticable; watch the front corners of a modern car as you move the steering from lock to lock, the outer one will rise significantly.
This means that the steering is heavier than you'd expect (you are jacking one corner of the car up by a couple of inches), and this means that some assistance is required, even on small cars.
Oli.
This means that the steering is heavier than you'd expect (you are jacking one corner of the car up by a couple of inches), and this means that some assistance is required, even on small cars.
Oli.
The newest car I've owned without it was a 1998 Fiat Cinquecento. The Seicento went upto around 04 but I believe the later facelifted ones had some form of electric power steering. The pre-facelift ones didn't though.
Something like an Aygo probably wouldn't need it. The Cinq/sei were 750-800kg dry and they didn't need it.
I highly doubt any mainstream production car will still be unassisted. Lotus is hardly a mainstream manufacturer.
Something like an Aygo probably wouldn't need it. The Cinq/sei were 750-800kg dry and they didn't need it.
I highly doubt any mainstream production car will still be unassisted. Lotus is hardly a mainstream manufacturer.
djfaulkner said:
No idea - But I had a simlair thought last night.
If a manufacturer could make a new old style car, would anyone buy one?
So no safety features, like - TC, ABS, PAS etc....
Not talking sports cars, or carbon fibre jobs. Metal/Steel frames
If it was cheap enough, yes, I imagine they would.If a manufacturer could make a new old style car, would anyone buy one?
So no safety features, like - TC, ABS, PAS etc....
Not talking sports cars, or carbon fibre jobs. Metal/Steel frames
ABS is a must though. People drive like idiots so anything that helps to stop them safely is good in my books and not an optional extra... Very few mainstream cars need TC. My partners old Diesel Merc A170 had it. I highly doubt that was ever going to go sideways off the road in opposite lock fury. PAS wouldn't be needed in a small car.
Stripped down, small car, circa 80-90hp, 800-900kg, driver/passenger airbag, abs. No canbus s
te... sorted.Deluded said:
djfaulkner said:
No idea - But I had a simlair thought last night.
If a manufacturer could make a new old style car, would anyone buy one?
So no safety features, like - TC, ABS, PAS etc....
Not talking sports cars, or carbon fibre jobs. Metal/Steel frames
If it was cheap enough, yes, I imagine they would.If a manufacturer could make a new old style car, would anyone buy one?
So no safety features, like - TC, ABS, PAS etc....
Not talking sports cars, or carbon fibre jobs. Metal/Steel frames
ABS is a must though. People drive like idiots so anything that helps to stop them safely is good in my books and not an optional extra... Very few mainstream cars need TC. My partners old Diesel Merc A170 had it. I highly doubt that was ever going to go sideways off the road in opposite lock fury. PAS wouldn't be needed in a small car.
Stripped down, small car, circa 80-90hp, 800-900kg, driver/passenger airbag, abs. No canbus s
te... sorted.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Um-XlKerWvA
Deluded said:
ABS is a must though. People drive like idiots so anything that helps to stop them safely is good in my books and not an optional extra...
I agree, but there's also a crucial distinction. ABS should only really be required when something unexpected happens. Obviously if you stay alert, maintain a safe distance etc. this is a lot less likely, but even experienced drivers occasionally have to slam the anchors on due to something beyond their control. At that point even the best sometimes forget cadence braking, and these days a computer can do it better.Flooring the throttle without traction control, on the other hand, is solely the driver's decision. That's why I never had a problem with TVR's refusal to fit traction control on its cars, but I do think ABS would have been good.
EDLT said:
Actually, the A-class did need TC:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Um-XlKerWvA
I wouldn't want to have a car which 'needed' TC. If it's judged necessary to install a complex computer controlled system just to prevent a car from falling over, that's not the car for me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Um-XlKerWvA
doogz said:
Caster. Seems very noticeable on modern Mercs at full lock.
Thanks Doogz. That makes more sense (I should have thought about it before typing!) CapriV6S said:
If you remove the belt which drives the PAS-pump, assuming it only drives the PAS-pump, does it do any damage to steering-rack, pump, etc?
I'm told it can knacker the seals in the steering rack, although don't know how true this is. Bear in mind that the steering gearing on a PAS car will be greater than on a non-PAS car, so comparing PAS-model to non-PAS-model, removing the assistance will make the PAS-model's steering heavier than the non.
Oli.
I guess I'm lucky. Unlike many here, I learnt to drive before cars got a whole string of letters after their name. Reading a write up on todays cars is like reading a list of over qualified academics, all with mostly meaningless letters after the name.
To the bloke who thinks ABS is essential I would say garbage. I'm probably unfair competition, I'm only a bit over 70, but the day any ABS/computer equipped car can brake in a shorter distance than me, with out the electronics, I'll give my licence in.
We had the interesting experience here recently, when two classes of Porsche were starting in the same races. Those in the ABS equipped cars were spending large bunches of money, getting rid of the stuff. This was when they found they had to brake more than 20 yards earlier than the cars with out it, at the bottom of Conrod straight Bathurst.
If you need ABS to be safe, please catch a bus, I will forgive you of course if your lady also drives the car car.
I'm afraid some of you are getting so used to our governments spinning everything, you're now falling for it when car manufacturers do it.
When it comes to power steering, the electric muck on my S2000 almost talked me out of the thing. It would have if I did not have the TR7, & 8, for long distance driving. The arm strong steering on them is so much more pleasant on long trips, that you arrive much more relaxed.
To the bloke who thinks ABS is essential I would say garbage. I'm probably unfair competition, I'm only a bit over 70, but the day any ABS/computer equipped car can brake in a shorter distance than me, with out the electronics, I'll give my licence in.
We had the interesting experience here recently, when two classes of Porsche were starting in the same races. Those in the ABS equipped cars were spending large bunches of money, getting rid of the stuff. This was when they found they had to brake more than 20 yards earlier than the cars with out it, at the bottom of Conrod straight Bathurst.
If you need ABS to be safe, please catch a bus, I will forgive you of course if your lady also drives the car car.
I'm afraid some of you are getting so used to our governments spinning everything, you're now falling for it when car manufacturers do it.
When it comes to power steering, the electric muck on my S2000 almost talked me out of the thing. It would have if I did not have the TR7, & 8, for long distance driving. The arm strong steering on them is so much more pleasant on long trips, that you arrive much more relaxed.
Edited by Hasbeen on Tuesday 11th September 15:22
Hasbeen said:
To the bloke who thinks ABS is essential I would say garbage. I'm probably unfair competition, I'm only a bit over 70, but the day any ABS/computer equipped car can brake in a shorter distance than me, with out the electronics, I'll give my licence in.
Why? Even if a human driver's assessment of tyre slip etc. is perfect - and most of us can't claim that - then a microprocessor can react a lot quicker. I wouldn't be surprised if a competent driver could outbrake a basic, old fashioned ABS system in the dry, but the top end systems are phenomenally sophisticated. I think the last few Ferraris have all been quicker around Fiorano with the electronics on and that's in the hands of professional racing drivers.
Hasbeen said:
but the day any ABS/computer equipped car can brake in a shorter distance than me, with out the electronics, I'll give my licence in.
Better set off for the post office right now then! 
My money says ABS will have you nailed in a straight line on a dry road let alone on a wet road, split grip surface or trying to steer at the same time.
Amongst other things, ask youself why ABS is banned from every form of motor racing.
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