Budget Track Car - E36 328i, or go for an M3?
Discussion
This is something that's been going round and round in my head for a while now. Relatively fresh from my second visit to Palmersport, it's about time I got myself some reliable seat time, and that means a car of my own. High initial outlay maybe, but the regularity and development (the car as well as myself!) I could get from it seems very worthwhile.
I drive an E46 328i, but that's far too nice to go putting round a track - I did think about it! - and something dedicated that I could do whatever I want to seems far more appealing. So the natural idea is an E36 328i, the automatic choice for such things, especially as a little inlet tweaking would see 210bhp on a £1000 RWD car. Nice. But then, when cars like this one are knocking around for just three bags, it seems ever so hard not to think about doing it properly and getting an M3.
So I appeal to your experience - what would you do, and why? If I picked the right 328i it would already be LSD-equipped, which is one big factor dealt with. But is the M3 going to be, apart from the power difference, considerably better-suited to the role? Or would I be wasting my money and better off with something that, if it went bang, I could replace it twice over and still have some change from the would-be M3?
I'm fairly focused on these two options at the moment, but of course I needn't say "any other ideas" because I'll hear them anyway
So, they stack up..
328i
M3 (3.2)
Hmmmmmm. Over to you!
I drive an E46 328i, but that's far too nice to go putting round a track - I did think about it! - and something dedicated that I could do whatever I want to seems far more appealing. So the natural idea is an E36 328i, the automatic choice for such things, especially as a little inlet tweaking would see 210bhp on a £1000 RWD car. Nice. But then, when cars like this one are knocking around for just three bags, it seems ever so hard not to think about doing it properly and getting an M3.
So I appeal to your experience - what would you do, and why? If I picked the right 328i it would already be LSD-equipped, which is one big factor dealt with. But is the M3 going to be, apart from the power difference, considerably better-suited to the role? Or would I be wasting my money and better off with something that, if it went bang, I could replace it twice over and still have some change from the would-be M3?
I'm fairly focused on these two options at the moment, but of course I needn't say "any other ideas" because I'll hear them anyway
So, they stack up..
328i
- 190bhp/210lb.ft
- 1300kg
- £1000
- LSD if you're lucky
- Easy tuning potential
- Ubiquity and ease of sourcing
M3 (3.2)
- 316bhp/260lb.ft
- 1450kg
- £3000
- LSD
- 6-speed
- It's an M3
Hmmmmmm. Over to you!
Personally I don't see the sense in any biggish car like that for track day use. My pick would be a kit car. Simpler, easier to fix and maintain, easier to upgrade, much much lighter, so better in the corners and under braking and going to be much lighter use on tyres, brakes and other consumables.
Something like a Robin Hood 2B might not be the best Se7en a-like in the world. But it's still low weight, RWD and front engined. It uses a Sierra rear end normally, so an LSD is easily available. Parts are cheap and they handle well.
Engines range from 2.0 Pinto's to 2.0 T-Series Turbocharged units. One of these setup for track use on some sticky tyres would leave pretty much any BMW for dead and cost a lot less to run too.
Plenty of BEC versions about too from other makers.
Something like a Robin Hood 2B might not be the best Se7en a-like in the world. But it's still low weight, RWD and front engined. It uses a Sierra rear end normally, so an LSD is easily available. Parts are cheap and they handle well.
Engines range from 2.0 Pinto's to 2.0 T-Series Turbocharged units. One of these setup for track use on some sticky tyres would leave pretty much any BMW for dead and cost a lot less to run too.
Plenty of BEC versions about too from other makers.
Riknos said:
What about parts costs? Have a look on eurocarparts for the cost of replacing suspension, brakes, tyres etc, and compare like for like - how much extra are the M3 parts? bare in mind a dedicated track car will be putting a lot of wear on these parts, and they will need replacing.
+1 it's not really being able to afford the purchase cost, its the parts that will kill you long term if you're not prepared for it.300bhp/ton said:
Personally I don't see the sense in any biggish car like that for track day use. My pick would be a kit car. Simpler, easier to fix and maintain, easier to upgrade, much much lighter, so better in the corners and under braking and going to be much lighter use on tyres, brakes and other consumables.
Something like a Robin Hood 2B might not be the best Se7en a-like in the world. But it's still low weight, RWD and front engined. It uses a Sierra rear end normally, so an LSD is easily available. Parts are cheap and they handle well.
Engines range from 2.0 Pinto's to 2.0 T-Series Turbocharged units. One of these setup for track use on some sticky tyres would leave pretty much any BMW for dead and cost a lot less to run too.
Plenty of BEC versions about too from other makers.
I agree .... go for a kitcar of some sortSomething like a Robin Hood 2B might not be the best Se7en a-like in the world. But it's still low weight, RWD and front engined. It uses a Sierra rear end normally, so an LSD is easily available. Parts are cheap and they handle well.
Engines range from 2.0 Pinto's to 2.0 T-Series Turbocharged units. One of these setup for track use on some sticky tyres would leave pretty much any BMW for dead and cost a lot less to run too.
Plenty of BEC versions about too from other makers.
Parts costs were my primary concern with the M3, with brakes and tyres at the top of the list. I hopefully wouldn't have to think too much about suspension, but yes, I need to price up EBC or Pagid stuff for each and see the difference. As for tyres, anyone know what size the M3 takes? The 328i would hopefully be on 205/55R16, which is wonderfully cheap to deal in.
300, that little line about "other suggestions" was written with you in mind
I had thought about kit cars, long and hard since driving the Sevens at PS again, but I kinda fancy a tin top for my first dabbling into this. Just seems a little more sensible on parts, etc, but I could of course be wrong. What would you be budgeting for a Robin Hood?
Prices were approx and I realise a good M3 is probably £3k+ while a manual 328i coupe could be a sixth of that! Nearly bought one for £450 a while back. Which actually kind of answers the question..
300, that little line about "other suggestions" was written with you in mind
I had thought about kit cars, long and hard since driving the Sevens at PS again, but I kinda fancy a tin top for my first dabbling into this. Just seems a little more sensible on parts, etc, but I could of course be wrong. What would you be budgeting for a Robin Hood?Prices were approx and I realise a good M3 is probably £3k+ while a manual 328i coupe could be a sixth of that! Nearly bought one for £450 a while back. Which actually kind of answers the question..
If you have the money to do some work to the M3 as well, then I'd go for one. If £3k is the limit, then a 328 + suspension mods would probably be better. I've had a couple of E36 M3 Evos now and the first I built for the track and had most of the things you would want suspension and brakes wise, despite doing the work myself I don't think I had much change from £2k and that was only because the car came with brand new BMW discs. This included polybushing, new wishbones, coilovers and ARBs.
You might find an M3 with a lot of the work done already, as I got absolutely slaughtered on my last one when it came time to sell and that had new wishbones, new diff mounts, had been polybushed throughout, new BMW discs and Performance Friction Z-rated pads on all four corners, clutch hose and Motul brake fluid. It really only needed coilovers, stripping, buckets and harnesses Thanks to spontaneously buying an RX-7, I ended up having to shift the car quickly and got little more than £3k for it. It seems the market really only pays for the conditions of the rear arches, so if you're happy to get one with a little rust (which the vast majority have), you'll probably be able to get it cheaply.
You might find an M3 with a lot of the work done already, as I got absolutely slaughtered on my last one when it came time to sell and that had new wishbones, new diff mounts, had been polybushed throughout, new BMW discs and Performance Friction Z-rated pads on all four corners, clutch hose and Motul brake fluid. It really only needed coilovers, stripping, buckets and harnesses Thanks to spontaneously buying an RX-7, I ended up having to shift the car quickly and got little more than £3k for it. It seems the market really only pays for the conditions of the rear arches, so if you're happy to get one with a little rust (which the vast majority have), you'll probably be able to get it cheaply.
Thanks, SuperVM, exactly the sort of experience I'm looking for
The budget really decides how soon I get to do it, rather than whether I can or not. A 328i I could maybe even have running for next year, but an M3 would be a while longer. But I read a lot into the modifications you've been doing to yours. I'm now thinking that while an M3 represents an outstanding base car, am I going to be better off getting a 328i and spending time and money over the year getting it well sorted and set up just how I want it?
Or would it be a shame to sink a load into a 328i when in fact, I still wouldn't have made it as good as an M3? I guess I'm wondering how big the gap between the two standard cars is
The budget really decides how soon I get to do it, rather than whether I can or not. A 328i I could maybe even have running for next year, but an M3 would be a while longer. But I read a lot into the modifications you've been doing to yours. I'm now thinking that while an M3 represents an outstanding base car, am I going to be better off getting a 328i and spending time and money over the year getting it well sorted and set up just how I want it?
Or would it be a shame to sink a load into a 328i when in fact, I still wouldn't have made it as good as an M3? I guess I'm wondering how big the gap between the two standard cars is
Also the difference in purchase price could be spent on upgrades that won't bring the power up a great deal, but will dramatically improve the braking and handling.
So the M3 might out run it on the straights, but the mods will keep you up in the corners.
Also think about saftey, and add a cage, could be a life saver.
So the M3 might out run it on the straights, but the mods will keep you up in the corners.
Also think about saftey, and add a cage, could be a life saver.
Bugger, shockingly enough I forgot about a cage. I'd want to do that after a few days of track work, and I imagine I'd be looking £500+ for a proper job?
And I'm not thinking too much about outright power, as that's not what it's about (though it'd be nice later in the game!), more about the initial setup and capabilities of the car. Strikes me the M3 is more suited by design.
And I'm not thinking too much about outright power, as that's not what it's about (though it'd be nice later in the game!), more about the initial setup and capabilities of the car. Strikes me the M3 is more suited by design.
Well... fifteen grand into my E36 323 track car (purchase price £1200) I'd say that whatever you buy it's going to cost a whole lot more than you ever expected.
So start as cheap as possible.
Whatever you buy, do not let bodywork persuade the price down. Give a typically corroded E36 some worthwhile grip and you'll see bits start to tear themselves apart. Buy a car that's solid and has good structural integrity; everything else can be mended
So start as cheap as possible.
Whatever you buy, do not let bodywork persuade the price down. Give a typically corroded E36 some worthwhile grip and you'll see bits start to tear themselves apart. Buy a car that's solid and has good structural integrity; everything else can be mended
McSam said:
Bugger, shockingly enough I forgot about a cage. I'd want to do that after a few days of track work, and I imagine I'd be looking £500+ for a proper job?
And I'm not thinking too much about outright power, as that's not what it's about (though it'd be nice later in the game!), more about the initial setup and capabilities of the car. Strikes me the M3 is more suited by design.
I don't think it is. It has better road capabilities but the suspension, as with most road cars, still turns to jelly on track.And I'm not thinking too much about outright power, as that's not what it's about (though it'd be nice later in the game!), more about the initial setup and capabilities of the car. Strikes me the M3 is more suited by design.
Having the larger brake setup from the off is nice, but you'll want to replace the discs and pads with something hardier anyway.
Well this looks like it's read to go pretty much:
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/4105802.htm
A cage would be easy to add. And plenty of upgrade paths, as it's already a T-Series motor a turbo one would be an easy swap down the line. 200hp straight off or 300hp with tweaks and beefier internals.
Some semi slick tyres would also be a good upgrade.
Bit more pricey, but this is 100% ready to go
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3529425.htm
But if you look about I'm sure you could pick up a Locost or some other kit or part finished kit from £800-1200.
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/4105802.htm
A cage would be easy to add. And plenty of upgrade paths, as it's already a T-Series motor a turbo one would be an easy swap down the line. 200hp straight off or 300hp with tweaks and beefier internals.
Some semi slick tyres would also be a good upgrade.
Bit more pricey, but this is 100% ready to go
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3529425.htm
But if you look about I'm sure you could pick up a Locost or some other kit or part finished kit from £800-1200.
aka_kerrly said:
Hang on, you drive a E46 328i which is apparently too nice to take on the track so you are thinking of buying a £3k M3!
Why not sell the E46 and just buy one decent E36 M3 and use it for the odd track day and everyday fun.
Yes - this E46 is actually the best one I could find anywhere in the country, and it's spotless. Works very well as a luxury cruiser, and I while I drive it hard fairly often I wouldn't want to go tracking it. The loading is a different league, and she's too nice to shorten the lifespan.Why not sell the E46 and just buy one decent E36 M3 and use it for the odd track day and everyday fun.
I much prefer the idea of having something dedicated, no road-car compromise needed in my modifications, and insurance is a massive issue for me at 20 years old. A quick question revealing my inexperience - do I need road insurance to use public track days? Could easily add it as a temporary car for the day on my policy, but just a question.
V8Mate, you're going a long way to solving the conundrum
the very fact that you've put so much money into a 323i, rather than feeling the need to "upgrade" or start bigger, makes me think there's no real need for an M3. And you do raise a point that while an M3 will start off better, it will still need beefing up. I guess in a 328i I would never need to know what I was missing 300, thanks for those
that Formula 27 looks an awesome piece of kit, but sadly well out of range! I am, however, kind of intrigued by the Robin Hood and it's cheaper than I thought. I think the only things that scare me are suddenly running out of mechanical ability should it go wrong/need building up (guess this applies to others as well, but still), and God knows what. It looks very entertaining, but.. maybe I just really like touring cars What other road-car-based options am I maybe missing completely?
V8mate said:
Well... fifteen grand into my E36 323 track car (purchase price £1200) I'd say that whatever you buy it's going to cost a whole lot more than you ever expected.
So start as cheap as possible.
Whatever you buy, do not let bodywork persuade the price down. Give a typically corroded E36 some worthwhile grip and you'll see bits start to tear themselves apart. Buy a car that's solid and has good structural integrity; everything else can be mended
This is a fair point, though my last E36 had the usual rear arch rust but was exceptionally clean underneath and even on the jacking points. The jacking points are one of the main rust points, so pull the rubber boots off when you have a look at any of these. Conversely, my first E36 looked very good, with minimal arch rust, but underneath wasn't anywhere as good as my last E36 (jacking points rusting heavily under the boots and the chassis legs were virtually orange). Rear arch repairs are very frequent, so you definitely need to get underneath one of these to verify the structural integrity. So start as cheap as possible.
Whatever you buy, do not let bodywork persuade the price down. Give a typically corroded E36 some worthwhile grip and you'll see bits start to tear themselves apart. Buy a car that's solid and has good structural integrity; everything else can be mended
SuperVM said:
V8mate said:
Well... fifteen grand into my E36 323 track car (purchase price £1200) I'd say that whatever you buy it's going to cost a whole lot more than you ever expected.
So start as cheap as possible.
Whatever you buy, do not let bodywork persuade the price down. Give a typically corroded E36 some worthwhile grip and you'll see bits start to tear themselves apart. Buy a car that's solid and has good structural integrity; everything else can be mended
This is a fair point, though my last E36 had the usual rear arch rust but was exceptionally clean underneath and even on the jacking points. The jacking points are one of the main rust points, so pull the rubber boots off when you have a look at any of these. Conversely, my first E36 looked very good, with minimal arch rust, but underneath wasn't anywhere as good as my last E36 (jacking points rusting heavily under the boots and the chassis legs were virtually orange). Rear arch repairs are very frequent, so you definitely need to get underneath one of these to verify the structural integrity. So start as cheap as possible.
Whatever you buy, do not let bodywork persuade the price down. Give a typically corroded E36 some worthwhile grip and you'll see bits start to tear themselves apart. Buy a car that's solid and has good structural integrity; everything else can be mended
My main concern with any cheap 328i is the state of the underbody, and I imagine it rules out a lot of the dirt-cheap ones - no good saving on the purchase price if half a season down the line it starts to fall apart on you. I sort of instinctively expected M3s to be in generally better condition, certainly than the bottom end of 328is, so felt some security in that option.
Thanks a lot for the specific advice on what to watch out for, though too easy to think the body condition doesn't matter on a track car, and let the important stuff be rusty too!
Here's a big one. How much, given a decent base car (of either type), maintenance would you expect it to need? I'm thinking in terms of big jobs, and I ask because brakes etc. are no issue to me, but I don't have a lift, so anything would be axle stands on the driveway. If it's an isolated incident I can go to a local garage and use their lifting gear, but not regularly. Is that going to be seriously impractical when running such a car?
Thanks a lot for the specific advice on what to watch out for, though
too easy to think the body condition doesn't matter on a track car, and let the important stuff be rusty too!Here's a big one. How much, given a decent base car (of either type), maintenance would you expect it to need? I'm thinking in terms of big jobs, and I ask because brakes etc. are no issue to me, but I don't have a lift, so anything would be axle stands on the driveway. If it's an isolated incident I can go to a local garage and use their lifting gear, but not regularly. Is that going to be seriously impractical when running such a car?
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