Shocking drainage on motorways - accident causer !

[Cyrus1971]

There is simply no excuse on my mind for very heavy rain to lead to an entire motorway lane being flooded.

Massive rain all night in London. 7 am this morning on the M4 from Heathrow junction heading west towards the M25 junction. The water was ponding and reached across the whole of the second overtaking lane in at least a dozen places along a 2 mile stretch + plenty of very deep areas that were not the full width of the lane but a serious hazard to cars in a 70 mph zone.

What is it with road engineers and maintenance crews. Why can’t the hapless unimaginative fks keep drains clear, pumps working and 10 inches of water off a road surface !

[Special K]

Cyrus1971 said:

There is simply no excuse on my mind for very heavy rain to lead to an entire motorway lane being flooded.

Massive rain all night in London. 7 am this morning on the M4 from Heathrow junction heading west towards the M25 junction. The water was ponding and reached across the whole of the second overtaking lane in at least a dozen places along a 2 mile stretch + plenty of very deep areas that were not the full width of the lane but a serious hazard to cars in a 70 mph zone.

What is it with road engineers and maintenance crews. Why can’t the hapless unimaginative fks keep drains clear, pumps working and 10 inches of water off a road surface !

And what happens when 'Massive rain' falls all night and overwhelms the drains ? Didn't realise they had pumps to relieve motorways, must have cost a fortune ?

Edited by Special K on Wednesday 17th October 08:52

[kambites]

I suppose the question is whether it's worth fitting considerably higher capacity, more expensive drainage systems to all motorways in order to keep the last lane open on the one day per year that we get rain heavy enough for it to matter.

If it's actually causing serious accidents that's another matter, but is it? I'm sure there are places that sort of money could better be spent if the aim is to improve road safety.

Edited by kambites on Wednesday 17th October 08:55

[BFG TERRANO]

This is fueled by spending cuts. The majority of drains can cope, just don't get cleaned regularly. Litter, leaves and road debris all build up.

I firmly believe a lot of flooding is caused by the lack of dredging out of ditches, canals and rivers. Areas of swindon have recently flooded that have never had trouble less than a year after major sections of canal were filled in.

[rumple]

Spending cuts may be part of it but in the 25 years I've been driving I can't remember it being any different, on the whole I find it disgusting this happens, oh I forgot, rain is unusual because of our dry humid climate

[Davel]

You're right, of course, but will any roads cope with torrential rain?

Equally, why do many motorists not slow down enough when they do see it and simply plough through it?

As said before, heavy rain is not exactly unusual here is it.

[XDA]

As already stated, the issue is drainage or the lack of it.

When was the last time you saw drains being checked/unblocked? There also appears to be inadequate run off areas to allow the water to run off the road surface.

[Electric Beaver]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oXf9FrXkIw

This might put your little bit of standing water into perspective!

The A1, the main north / south motorway in the north east was completely closed for several days a few weeks ago due to massive flooding.

[Cyrus1971]

kambites said:

I suppose the question is whether it's worth fitting considerably higher capacity, more expensive drainage systems to all motorways in order to keep the last lane open on the one day per year that we get rain heavy enough for it to matter.

If it's actually causing serious accidents that's another matter, but is it? I'm sure there are places that sort of money could better be spent if the aim is to improve road safety.

Edited by kambites on Wednesday 17th October 08:55

Most road cambers throw wash off to the outer edges and then into culverts for transfer to soak aways or a larger drain. Where the land does not allow for that a pump can and is somethmes used. The specific patch I am talking about has had this issue for the 25 years I have been driving. IMHO that is down to bad design and maintenance.

My point is they should design and build a drainage system in every situation that is up for the task ahead of it. Up to and including even a 100 year storm standard. Retro fixing it in the " Oh goodness look at that, it's gone and unexpectedly rained a lot and we didn't design and build if for that eventuality " way - we want more money to fix the probalem we caused. That's what annoys me. Some fine engineeering capability in the UK so there is no excuse for this happening in the first place. It is a lack of vision and split arse thinking leads to it.

[petrolsniffer]

M6 when theres heavy rain lethal!

[Captain Muppet]

Surely what we need is some sort of wildlife pump/drainage system to keep deer off the roads. Sometimes I see a deer in the road and if I didn't brake it could be really dangerous. Somthing* should be done about this silent killer that stalks us all.




* other than the driver being careful, because for some reason that isn't acceptable any more.

[Cyrus1971]

Electric Beaver said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oXf9FrXkIw

This might put your little bit of standing water into perspective!

The A1, the main north / south motorway in the north east was completely closed for several days a few weeks ago due to massive flooding.

Yup, your bang on the money, that is a shocker. The issue I saw this morning was about 25% of that. I have also frequently seen a bad patch on a lovely double sweep ing crest and bend of the M40 about 25 miles out side London that also drains to the central reservation and then is not drained away.

[Cyrus1971]

Captain Muppet said:

Surely what we need is some sort of wildlife pump/drainage system to keep deer off the roads. Sometimes I see a deer in the road and if I didn't brake it could be really dangerous. Somthing* should be done about this silent killer that stalks us all.




* other than the driver being careful, because for some reason that isn't acceptable any more.

Sorry I don't agree. There is no parallel. This is not about drivers being accountable for avoiding hazards. That was and is always paramount.

This is about Motorway design and maintenance avoiding causing accidents. That is practiced in a myriad of ways already. From signage, to lanes, to barriers etc etc. So why does effective drainage in all cases not factor on that list of considerations and design and maintenance.

[kambites]

Cyrus1971 said:

My point is they should design and build a drainage system in every situation that is up for the task ahead of it. Up to and including even a 100 year storm standard.

This is where I disagree. There is a finite amount of money available, and I suspect the money required to do this could be better spent improving other aspects of the road network (not that it seems to get spent on either at the moment).

[Dr_Rick]

Cyrus1971 said:

Most road cambers throw wash off to the outer edges and then into culverts for transfer to soak aways or a larger drain. Where the land does not allow for that a pump can and is somethmes used. The specific patch I am talking about has had this issue for the 25 years I have been driving. IMHO that is down to bad design and maintenance.

My point is they should design and build a drainage system in every situation that is up for the task ahead of it. Up to and including even a 100 year storm standard. Retro fixing it in the " Oh goodness look at that, it's gone and unexpectedly rained a lot and we didn't design and build if for that eventuality " way - we want more money to fix the probalem we caused. That's what annoys me. Some fine engineeering capability in the UK so there is no excuse for this happening in the first place. It is a lack of vision and split arse thinking leads to it.

But it's not down to the engineering capability in the UK; having done highway drainage design, it takes no more skill to design for the 1:100yr event than it does for the 1:30yr event. The difference is that the industry standard is to use the latter as the design event. Of course, the drainage you are seeing could well have been designed for the 1:30yr event of 25yrs ago, but without the contemporary allowances that are built in for climate change. So now, that drainage will only deal with events up to the 1:25yr or even the 1:20yr events. Hence you're seeing it as overwhelmed.

However, from my days doing walkover surveys of highway drainage, I would agree with your earlier point about maintenance. A certain stretch of the M8 leading into Glasgow (Baillieston junction) had only about 30% of the covers in a fit state to be opened, the rest were rusted shut. A similar situation for the gully grates; they were full of silt and served only a decorative purpose.

Its unlikely to be bad design, more likely bad maintenance caused by lack of funds.

Dr Rick

[Captain Muppet]

Cyrus1971 said:

Captain Muppet said:

Surely what we need is some sort of wildlife pump/drainage system to keep deer off the roads. Sometimes I see a deer in the road and if I didn't brake it could be really dangerous. Somthing* should be done about this silent killer that stalks us all.




* other than the driver being careful, because for some reason that isn't acceptable any more.

Sorry I don't agree. There is no parallel. This is not about drivers being accountable for avoiding hazards. That was and is always paramount.

This is about Motorway design and maintenance avoiding causing accidents. That is practiced in a myriad of ways already. From signage, to lanes, to barriers etc etc. So why does effective drainage in all cases not factor on that list of considerations and design and maintenance.

Given unlimited money I'd like all roads to be well drained, free of pot holes and heated in winter. But money is limited. Maybe they feel they can skimp on drainage because drivers can slow down when they see a lake instead of tarmac. "Caution flooding" signs are cheaper than drains.

The road between my house and work is below the level of the fields and is often flooded. Until this thread I hadn't thought for a second that it's someones job to make sure it doesn't flood, but now I'll have a think about it.

[4key]

Dont worry, be snowing soon.

[robinessex]

To the best of my knowledge, from a friend who knows, motorway maintenance re drainage clearance is abysmally poor, almost no existent. This is the major reason motorways develop rivers. There are however, sections of motorways, which some of us remember in time, where poor original surface camber produce 'rivers' across or along the carriageway. Before the M11/M25 junction was re-worked, water used to flow down the hill on the clockwise section here. I remember seeing an XJR do 2 360 degree spins here once when he hit it. I always wonder if when motorways were originally built, they weren't to the designated surface profile, and this is why water gets retained, or drains poorly.

[Cyrus1971]

Dr_Rick said:

Of course, the drainage you are seeing could well have been designed for the 1:30yr event of 25yrs ago

Dr Rick

Fair enough, but it is not coping with even a 5 times year event at the moment ...

Dr_Rick said:

Its unlikely to be bad design, more likely bad maintenance caused by lack of funds.

Dr Rick

Almost certainly the main cause is not enough maintenance, but that is a matter prioritization so someone somewhere is making a judement call that it is OK to have a motorway covered in water. It's that judgement call that I find amazing considering the peril it introduces.

[BFG TERRANO]

Add to all the above its been confirmed as the wettest summer for 100 years. The land can't take any more, its saturated.