Compressor + inverter wiring help
Discussion
Not sure where to post this 
Hi Guys,
I've recently had a bit of a score on an air compressor. I picked up a 100L "Clarke" brand air compressor (This one, to be precise: www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Air-compressor-/221150743120 ) with a 3 phase Ceccato 5233 or 80/4 motor. I'm having problems getting it going and was hoping you could help me trouble shoot. I'll let you know what I know.
The bloke I got it off said he had a mate of his "convert" it to run on 240V about 10 years ago (the front on the inverter has a date in '01 written on it) and said it was working fine when I stopped using it about 6 years ago. I've got no reason not to believe him but at the same time... I don't necessarily believe him.
There is a an "IMO JAGUAR CUB VC75" variable frequency inverter attached to the compressor which is all wired up. When you plug it into a 220v supply you get the power light come on. When you press the run button on the air cut off solenoid box thingy; the run light comes on the inverter but the motor doesn't turn or buzz or anything. If you put a multimeter over the output pins when it's on, you get 0 however a bit further up there's some connection for the DC Brake control which there is power at.
I've found this user manual for the inverter: http://www.denfordata.com/bb/download/file.php?id=...
This is the faceplate data card:
So we know somewhere the inverter is toast, HOWEVER on the motor cover plate, it seems to note that the motor can be ran in either single or 3 phase modes. Here's the cover plate:
From what I can make out; ROTAZ DX means rotate clockwise and ROTAZ SX means rotate anti-clockwise (or vice-versa). We've connected a power supply straight up to the motor to see if that will make it run (we've tried both configurations) but all you get is a nice humming noise. I seem to remember reading somewhere that you'd probably need a starter capacitor in order to get a motor this size running. Does that sound about right? Where does that go in the grand scheme of things?
Is it worth trying to get it running on single phase or just try and find a new inverter?
I think that's everything but please ask any questions you may have!
This is the motor's cover plate (frontal view).
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/7705/img3297.JP...
(the thumbnail doesn't seem to work for that image ).
Many thanks in advance!
Hi Guys,
I've recently had a bit of a score on an air compressor. I picked up a 100L "Clarke" brand air compressor (This one, to be precise: www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Air-compressor-/221150743120 ) with a 3 phase Ceccato 5233 or 80/4 motor. I'm having problems getting it going and was hoping you could help me trouble shoot. I'll let you know what I know.
The bloke I got it off said he had a mate of his "convert" it to run on 240V about 10 years ago (the front on the inverter has a date in '01 written on it) and said it was working fine when I stopped using it about 6 years ago. I've got no reason not to believe him but at the same time... I don't necessarily believe him.
There is a an "IMO JAGUAR CUB VC75" variable frequency inverter attached to the compressor which is all wired up. When you plug it into a 220v supply you get the power light come on. When you press the run button on the air cut off solenoid box thingy; the run light comes on the inverter but the motor doesn't turn or buzz or anything. If you put a multimeter over the output pins when it's on, you get 0 however a bit further up there's some connection for the DC Brake control which there is power at.
I've found this user manual for the inverter: http://www.denfordata.com/bb/download/file.php?id=...
This is the faceplate data card:
So we know somewhere the inverter is toast, HOWEVER on the motor cover plate, it seems to note that the motor can be ran in either single or 3 phase modes. Here's the cover plate:
From what I can make out; ROTAZ DX means rotate clockwise and ROTAZ SX means rotate anti-clockwise (or vice-versa). We've connected a power supply straight up to the motor to see if that will make it run (we've tried both configurations) but all you get is a nice humming noise. I seem to remember reading somewhere that you'd probably need a starter capacitor in order to get a motor this size running. Does that sound about right? Where does that go in the grand scheme of things?
Is it worth trying to get it running on single phase or just try and find a new inverter?
I think that's everything but please ask any questions you may have!
This is the motor's cover plate (frontal view).
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/7705/img3297.JP...
(the thumbnail doesn't seem to work for that image
).Many thanks in advance!
I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed but it's far from clear to me how the alleged "conversion" could have been done.
A 3-phase supply involves AC current drawn off the generator shaft at various angles. To use that current you need a motor whose shaft windings mirror those same angles.
In other words I am not convinced that conversion is possible.
A 3-phase supply involves AC current drawn off the generator shaft at various angles. To use that current you need a motor whose shaft windings mirror those same angles.
In other words I am not convinced that conversion is possible.
Ozzie Osmond said:
I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed but it's far from clear to me how the alleged "conversion" could have been done.
A 3-phase supply involves AC current drawn off the generator shaft at various angles. To use that current you need a motor whose shaft windings mirror those same angles.
In other words I am not convinced that conversion is possible.
Oh yeah might not have made much sense. Conversion as in installing the inverter so it runs on 240v single phase. A 3-phase supply involves AC current drawn off the generator shaft at various angles. To use that current you need a motor whose shaft windings mirror those same angles.
In other words I am not convinced that conversion is possible.
Worth noting that the motor can run on either according to the cover plate.
saaby93 said:
Asking the obvious but have you linked across the terminals as shown in the cover box?
Yep! Just humms - no running. I think it needs a starter capacitor but not sure; as it was running on 3 phase before it has like a starter curcuit as i understand it.
Hello there.have you tested the inverter output at all ,phase down?furthermore you require a capacitor to get it moving if wired for single phase although spinning the motor by hand would get it going without ..also have you mega ,d the motor to see if it's going to earth across the terminals ..the fix lies herein..rob
robseagul said:
Hello there.have you tested the inverter output at all ,phase down?furthermore you require a capacitor to get it moving if wired for single phase although spinning the motor by hand would get it going without ..also have you mega ,d the motor to see if it's going to earth across the terminals ..the fix lies herein..rob
Hi Rob!Thanks for your reply - you sound like the boss!
Inverter output - yes - nothing
.Re capacitor - that's as I though - how is that wired in? I can't find any diagrams anywhere. I'll try getting it running then - what's the best way - bit of string around the shaft or something?
I'm not sure what this means though
[quote].also have you mega ,d the motor to see if it's going to earth across the terminals ..the fix lies herein..rob
saaby93 said:
Can you show us a photo of the tereminals?
The strange thing is there are only 5 terminals in the single phase diagrams
Youd expect there to be 6 with the 6th one (bottom left )shown unconnected.
Maye they supply the same cover box with different motors
I don't have a picture to hand but there are 6 terminals in there, i'm not sure what the other one is supposed to do in single phase config. The strange thing is there are only 5 terminals in the single phase diagrams
Youd expect there to be 6 with the 6th one (bottom left )shown unconnected.
Maye they supply the same cover box with different motors
Xenocide said:
saaby93 said:
Can you show us a photo of the terminals?
The strange thing is there are only 5 terminals in the single phase diagrams
Youd expect there to be 6 with the 6th one (bottom left )shown unconnected.
Maybe they supply the same cover box with different motors
I don't have a picture to hand but there are 6 terminals in there, i'm not sure what the other one is supposed to do in single phase config. The strange thing is there are only 5 terminals in the single phase diagrams
Youd expect there to be 6 with the 6th one (bottom left )shown unconnected.
Maybe they supply the same cover box with different motors
I reckon the 5 vs 6 terminals is a clue
Edited by saaby93 on Friday 16th November 23:35
Chaps.
Firstly I may have a manual for that inverter at work.
Motor :
The motor can run in star or delta, and this will be decided by the voltage you applying to it. As the inverter is being run from a single phase supply, the motor will need to be in delta.
Inverter :
The reason this can work, is an inverter actually outputs dc to the motor, although the motor doesn't "know" this.
When the AC supply goes into the inverter, it is turned into DC, a 3 phase 415 supply would give a higher DC bus, than a single phase 240 supply, hence the star and delta windings on the motor.
The inverter can be made to work in different ways, they can work from their keypad, start stop and output frequency (speed), they can have a single speed set in them, some of them have a potentiometer on the front, and they can all be operated externally.
The inverter is really designed for variable speed applications, which a compressor isn't.
To decide how it is set up, you will need to consult the manual, you should be able to download it from the net, just google the inverter type, look at the configuration terminals, and it should become obvious how it has been setup.
You will have an enable, a direction input forward or reverse, it will have an analogue input, but that may not be wired, it will have a couple of set speed select inputs, I'm guessing one of these will be used, and that will have been set internally to 50Hz.
It will then just be turned on and off by some pressure sensor or other, and will ramp up, and down, to and from 50 Hz.
Have I been of any use, if not say so, and say what you don't understand ?
Firstly I may have a manual for that inverter at work.
Motor :
The motor can run in star or delta, and this will be decided by the voltage you applying to it. As the inverter is being run from a single phase supply, the motor will need to be in delta.
Inverter :
The reason this can work, is an inverter actually outputs dc to the motor, although the motor doesn't "know" this.
When the AC supply goes into the inverter, it is turned into DC, a 3 phase 415 supply would give a higher DC bus, than a single phase 240 supply, hence the star and delta windings on the motor.
The inverter can be made to work in different ways, they can work from their keypad, start stop and output frequency (speed), they can have a single speed set in them, some of them have a potentiometer on the front, and they can all be operated externally.
The inverter is really designed for variable speed applications, which a compressor isn't.
To decide how it is set up, you will need to consult the manual, you should be able to download it from the net, just google the inverter type, look at the configuration terminals, and it should become obvious how it has been setup.
You will have an enable, a direction input forward or reverse, it will have an analogue input, but that may not be wired, it will have a couple of set speed select inputs, I'm guessing one of these will be used, and that will have been set internally to 50Hz.
It will then just be turned on and off by some pressure sensor or other, and will ramp up, and down, to and from 50 Hz.
Have I been of any use, if not say so, and say what you don't understand ?
Oh, and importantly, DO NOT CONNECT ANY CAPACITORS, OR ANYTHING ELSE for that matter, to the outputs of this inverter, or any other inverter , or the effing motor , whilst it has an inverter attached to it!
You are unlikely to get any meaningful readings using a multimeter from the outputs.
The DC bus of this inverter will be in the realms of 340 VDC, (240 x 1.414)
Don't f
k with it, it will bite you, and for a few minutes after you turn it off, and you can very easily knacker them !
You are unlikely to get any meaningful readings using a multimeter from the outputs.
The DC bus of this inverter will be in the realms of 340 VDC, (240 x 1.414)
Don't f
k with it, it will bite you, and for a few minutes after you turn it off, and you can very easily knacker them !Hello there.many valid points here but lets get back to basics...
You say there is no output in the inverter yet the motor is humming. Therefore there must be something coming out but is it three phases??. Check the outputs from the inveter first bearing in mind you need 415 between 2 phases and 240 on each..try this first chap and go from there ...r
You say there is no output in the inverter yet the motor is humming. Therefore there must be something coming out but is it three phases??. Check the outputs from the inveter first bearing in mind you need 415 between 2 phases and 240 on each..try this first chap and go from there ...r
robseagul said:
Hello there.many valid points here but lets get back to basics...
You say there is no output in the inverter yet the motor is humming. Therefore there must be something coming out but is it three phases??. Check the outputs from the inveter first bearing in mind you need 415 between 2 phases and 240 on each..try this first chap and go from there ...r
If I had understood him, he has a single phase inverter, where the fook is he going to get 415 volts from ?You say there is no output in the inverter yet the motor is humming. Therefore there must be something coming out but is it three phases??. Check the outputs from the inveter first bearing in mind you need 415 between 2 phases and 240 on each..try this first chap and go from there ...r
Nigel Worc's said:
Chaps.
Firstly I may have a manual for that inverter at work.
Motor :
The motor can run in star or delta, and this will be decided by the voltage you applying to it. As the inverter is being run from a single phase supply, the motor will need to be in delta.
Inverter :
The reason this can work, is an inverter actually outputs dc to the motor, although the motor doesn't "know" this.
When the AC supply goes into the inverter, it is turned into DC, a 3 phase 415 supply would give a higher DC bus, than a single phase 240 supply, hence the star and delta windings on the motor.
The inverter can be made to work in different ways, they can work from their keypad, start stop and output frequency (speed), they can have a single speed set in them, some of them have a potentiometer on the front, and they can all be operated externally.
The inverter is really designed for variable speed applications, which a compressor isn't.
To decide how it is set up, you will need to consult the manual, you should be able to download it from the net, just google the inverter type, look at the configuration terminals, and it should become obvious how it has been setup.
You will have an enable, a direction input forward or reverse, it will have an analogue input, but that may not be wired, it will have a couple of set speed select inputs, I'm guessing one of these will be used, and that will have been set internally to 50Hz.
It will then just be turned on and off by some pressure sensor or other, and will ramp up, and down, to and from 50 Hz.
Have I been of any use, if not say so, and say what you don't understand ?
You've been a great help - thank you - and thank you to everyone whose replied!Firstly I may have a manual for that inverter at work.
Motor :
The motor can run in star or delta, and this will be decided by the voltage you applying to it. As the inverter is being run from a single phase supply, the motor will need to be in delta.
Inverter :
The reason this can work, is an inverter actually outputs dc to the motor, although the motor doesn't "know" this.
When the AC supply goes into the inverter, it is turned into DC, a 3 phase 415 supply would give a higher DC bus, than a single phase 240 supply, hence the star and delta windings on the motor.
The inverter can be made to work in different ways, they can work from their keypad, start stop and output frequency (speed), they can have a single speed set in them, some of them have a potentiometer on the front, and they can all be operated externally.
The inverter is really designed for variable speed applications, which a compressor isn't.
To decide how it is set up, you will need to consult the manual, you should be able to download it from the net, just google the inverter type, look at the configuration terminals, and it should become obvious how it has been setup.
You will have an enable, a direction input forward or reverse, it will have an analogue input, but that may not be wired, it will have a couple of set speed select inputs, I'm guessing one of these will be used, and that will have been set internally to 50Hz.
It will then just be turned on and off by some pressure sensor or other, and will ramp up, and down, to and from 50 Hz.
Have I been of any use, if not say so, and say what you don't understand ?
So after a bit of reading I think I understand the difference between delta + star.
I've come to the conclusion that the inverter is knackered - i've read that capacitors can degrade after a few years of being discharged (and there's two MASSIVE ones in there) + stored in a shed.
It was working fine before being laid up so I'm confident that the settings on there could be copied to another inverter should I get another one.
I guess the question is: Do I try and get it running on 240v single (with a starter capacitor or whatever's needed) or stop cocking about and find another inverter from somewhere?
Sorry I think i've confused you - No output from the inverter so I took the leads from the inverter off the motor and connected 240V straight to the back of the motor as per the cover plate's instructions. When it's connected like this it humms.
EG the power cord out the wall straight into the back of the motor, flick the switch for a second and it just humms (then turn it off again).
Yep it all sounds pretty dodgy, it is. I know it's supposed to go through the start/stop button but just to see if the motor was going to turn for me.
EG the power cord out the wall straight into the back of the motor, flick the switch for a second and it just humms (then turn it off again).
Yep it all sounds pretty dodgy, it is. I know it's supposed to go through the start/stop button but just to see if the motor was going to turn for me.
Xenocide said:
Sorry I think i've confused you - No output from the inverter so I took the leads from the inverter off the motor and connected 240V straight to the back of the motor as per the cover plate's instructions. When it's connected like this it humms.
EG the power cord out the wall straight into the back of the motor, flick the switch for a second and it just humms (then turn it off again).
Yep it all sounds pretty dodgy, it is. I know it's supposed to go through the start/stop button but just to see if the motor was going to turn for me.
Oh FFS, DON'T DO THAT, it's a 3 phase motor, you'll be single phasing it !EG the power cord out the wall straight into the back of the motor, flick the switch for a second and it just humms (then turn it off again).
Yep it all sounds pretty dodgy, it is. I know it's supposed to go through the start/stop button but just to see if the motor was going to turn for me.
Are you sure the inverter is knackered ?
It has no reason to be, they work for years and years and years.
Where in the country are you ?
Nigel Worc's said:
Xenocide said:
Sorry I think i've confused you - No output from the inverter so I took the leads from the inverter off the motor and connected 240V straight to the back of the motor as per the cover plate's instructions. When it's connected like this it humms.
EG the power cord out the wall straight into the back of the motor, flick the switch for a second and it just humms (then turn it off again).
Yep it all sounds pretty dodgy, it is. I know it's supposed to go through the start/stop button but just to see if the motor was going to turn for me.
Oh FFS, DON'T DO THAT, it's a 3 phase motor, you'll be single phasing it !EG the power cord out the wall straight into the back of the motor, flick the switch for a second and it just humms (then turn it off again).
Yep it all sounds pretty dodgy, it is. I know it's supposed to go through the start/stop button but just to see if the motor was going to turn for me.
Are you sure the inverter is knackered ?
It has no reason to be, they work for years and years and years.
Where in the country are you ?
Wiltshire
.The sole reason people fit single phase input, 3 phase ouput inverters to machinery, is so they can run it off a single phase supply, like you have at home.
I've done many of these over the years, normally lathes, as most people who want a compressor buy a single phase Clarke one, that has a very different type of motor on it.
If you have a smallish 3 phase motor, these inverters are actually quite cheap, so it is a reasonable way to convert it.
If you are anywhere near Worcester, let me know, I'll be in the workshop tomorrow, and if you bring the inverter to me, and the book in case I can't find one, I'll test it for you.
I've done many of these over the years, normally lathes, as most people who want a compressor buy a single phase Clarke one, that has a very different type of motor on it.
If you have a smallish 3 phase motor, these inverters are actually quite cheap, so it is a reasonable way to convert it.
If you are anywhere near Worcester, let me know, I'll be in the workshop tomorrow, and if you bring the inverter to me, and the book in case I can't find one, I'll test it for you.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff