Jap rally-rep saloon dead? Would diesel bring 'em back?
Discussion
Cast you mind back to the late 90's...
Subaru and Mitsubishi were battling it out in the media and on the road with their 4x4 rally-rep saloon working-class heros.
Power was there, torque more so, robust 4x4 mechanicals built on the back of rally expertise, fairly lightweight, lowish price tags, burbling exhaust notes and just enough creature comforts to make them useable every day. They were everywhere. Petrol prices were on the way up, but still tolerable. Diesel was gaining momentum, but wasn't yet mainstream, the preserve of farmers, the caravan club and those with beige cardigans and moths in their wallets. And Co2 was something written on your V5 which very few of us paid much attention to. Barges were V8s, execs were 6-pots, petrol ruled and blending economy with performance was nice if you could get it.
Fast forward to Nov 2012 and think about the last time you saw a new one. Subaru started making their cars fugly, tried to take them upmarket and finally ignored where it all started and turned their contender into a hatchback. Mitsubishi development seemed intent on turning their car into a jet fighter, with price tags and service plan in line with the theme.
So, IMO they lost their way and didn't move with the times. Question is, will they ever get back on track?
Look at how the industry has moved on and reinvented the rules. GT cars are now desirable as a diesel (ala 640d), Jaguar not only supply diesels, but have some of the best. Barges come in 4-banger flavour supping from the oily pump. BMWs are the cheapest company cars you can get. Accordingly to the testers, some dervs even sound decent now. Dervs win at Le Mans.
Like it or not, but mainstream is now about diesel and your ability to rig your mapping to score on the EU tests to get yourself a nice bit of paper with your official mpg and Co2.
Now, this is what got me thinking. Rally-reps were never about high revving engines. They were about great big slugs of torque fired at all four wheels through close ratio boxes with plenty of whooshes and whistles to go with it.
Basically, perfect for a high performance thumping 4-pot diesel? Discuss.
Subaru and Mitsubishi were battling it out in the media and on the road with their 4x4 rally-rep saloon working-class heros.
Power was there, torque more so, robust 4x4 mechanicals built on the back of rally expertise, fairly lightweight, lowish price tags, burbling exhaust notes and just enough creature comforts to make them useable every day. They were everywhere. Petrol prices were on the way up, but still tolerable. Diesel was gaining momentum, but wasn't yet mainstream, the preserve of farmers, the caravan club and those with beige cardigans and moths in their wallets. And Co2 was something written on your V5 which very few of us paid much attention to. Barges were V8s, execs were 6-pots, petrol ruled and blending economy with performance was nice if you could get it.
Fast forward to Nov 2012 and think about the last time you saw a new one. Subaru started making their cars fugly, tried to take them upmarket and finally ignored where it all started and turned their contender into a hatchback. Mitsubishi development seemed intent on turning their car into a jet fighter, with price tags and service plan in line with the theme.
So, IMO they lost their way and didn't move with the times. Question is, will they ever get back on track?
Look at how the industry has moved on and reinvented the rules. GT cars are now desirable as a diesel (ala 640d), Jaguar not only supply diesels, but have some of the best. Barges come in 4-banger flavour supping from the oily pump. BMWs are the cheapest company cars you can get. Accordingly to the testers, some dervs even sound decent now. Dervs win at Le Mans.
Like it or not, but mainstream is now about diesel and your ability to rig your mapping to score on the EU tests to get yourself a nice bit of paper with your official mpg and Co2.
Now, this is what got me thinking. Rally-reps were never about high revving engines. They were about great big slugs of torque fired at all four wheels through close ratio boxes with plenty of whooshes and whistles to go with it.
Basically, perfect for a high performance thumping 4-pot diesel? Discuss.
Matt UK said:
Now, this is what got me thinking. Rally-reps were never about high revving engines. They were about great big slugs of torque fired at all four wheels through close ratio boxes with plenty of whooshes and whistles to go with it.
But they had pin sharp throttle response (a separate matter to power delivery though often confused). You'll never get that from a diesel. That is why diesels make nice cruisers but are poor performance cars. Even the TDi's that have won on the track have done so against petrols handicapped with weight ballasts to make it a 'fair fight' - and it's nothing of the sort when there is no penalty for diesel economy on track!RobCrezz said:
cptsideways said:
Quite a few modern derv's will give the old rally reps a run for their money these days
Really? Can only think of the 335d.Although I wouldn't personally want a diesel one, I bet they would sell well if it was at least 300bhp.
Baryonyx said:
But they had pin sharp throttle response (a separate matter to power delivery though often confused). You'll never get that from a diesel.
er, Compression ignition engines have a much faster normally aspirated torque response to throttle application than a spark ignition engine because they run with excess air all the time, hence you just need to squirt more fuel in to get more torque (which can happen on a literally "next cycle" basis (unlike SI engines where you need to wait for cylinder filling to occur).Also, being non throttled tends to let the turbo maintain speed between things like gear shifts etc.
And as for the rally reps having "pin sharp throttle response" er, not the ones i have ever driven, in fact they usually need a nice bit of left foot braking to really come alive imo........
Mainstream might be about diesel, but rally reps and whatever they became are decidedly not mainstream (in fact, you've used that as a criticism of Subaru in where they went wrong)
I can't see the link between the demise of these types of car and them being petrol powered tbh.
High performance anything aren't particularly frugal.
I can't see the link between the demise of these types of car and them being petrol powered tbh.
High performance anything aren't particularly frugal.
All valid points.
Guess I'm thinking about how well the following car would sell:
2.0 ltr 4-cyl diesel (it can be on the 'gruff' side of refined)
220 bhp power
350lb ft torque
4x4 saloon
1350kg curb weight
Simple but well set-up and friendly chassis (as per early Impreza)
Good weight and feel to the primary controls
6spd manual box / 8 spd paddles option
Limited options avialble - Recaros, aircon, ipod conection included
40mpg on a run, 25mpg when pushing on
CO2 of 120
Service every 15,000 miles
25k puchase price for saloon, £28k for the coupe.
Guess I'm thinking about how well the following car would sell:
2.0 ltr 4-cyl diesel (it can be on the 'gruff' side of refined)
220 bhp power
350lb ft torque
4x4 saloon
1350kg curb weight
Simple but well set-up and friendly chassis (as per early Impreza)
Good weight and feel to the primary controls
6spd manual box / 8 spd paddles option
Limited options avialble - Recaros, aircon, ipod conection included
40mpg on a run, 25mpg when pushing on
CO2 of 120
Service every 15,000 miles
25k puchase price for saloon, £28k for the coupe.
Max_Torque said:
er, Compression ignition engines have a much faster normally aspirated torque response to throttle application than a spark ignition engine because they run with excess air all the time, hence you just need to squirt more fuel in to get more torque (which can happen on a literally "next cycle" basis (unlike SI engines where you need to wait for cylinder filling to occur).
Also, being non throttled tends to let the turbo maintain speed between things like gear shifts etc.
And as for the rally reps having "pin sharp throttle response" er, not the ones i have ever driven, in fact they usually need a nice bit of left foot braking to really come alive imo........
You seem to be confusing throttle response with power delivery. Rally reps do respond well to left foot braking to keep the rev count high in corners and keep the turbo working. But they also tend to be pretty snappy in terms of actually delivering a sharp throttle response too; revving quickly and in tune with the driver pressing the pedal. Essential in a car like that. Even if they can be a bit laggy and leaden below the boost threshold. Diesel engines can produce power on demand as you suggest, but do any road cars run like that unless they are on a runaway cycle?Also, being non throttled tends to let the turbo maintain speed between things like gear shifts etc.
And as for the rally reps having "pin sharp throttle response" er, not the ones i have ever driven, in fact they usually need a nice bit of left foot braking to really come alive imo........
Even the naturally aspirated diesels with manual throttles feel slow at the pedal. Yes, the engine can produce a surge of power a second or so later but that isn't what I'm talking about.
When I used to have an Impreza and was looking around for something quick and a bit more frugal to replace it,I remember reading an article in Total Impreza magazine.
This featured a concept vehicle that Subaru were testing which was basically a full fat STi with a diesel engine.
The stats were:
0-60 = 5.5secs
top speed = 144mph
power = 185bhp
torque = 321lbs ft
nurburgring lap time = 8:30
mpg = 50.3 average
emissions = 149g/km
I was interested,but nothing materialised,other than the RC/X.I felt that this would be the same compromise as buying a WRX over an Sti.
I bought a 335d instead and had that remapped.Not as fun as my old Impreza but much quicker and better on fuel.
It seems that Subaru have moved on and have left their core fans behind,which is a real shame.They are back tracking a little bit now,but I think that we will have to look elsewhere for a decent,high performance d-Audi maybe?
This featured a concept vehicle that Subaru were testing which was basically a full fat STi with a diesel engine.
The stats were:
0-60 = 5.5secs
top speed = 144mph
power = 185bhp
torque = 321lbs ft
nurburgring lap time = 8:30
mpg = 50.3 average
emissions = 149g/km
I was interested,but nothing materialised,other than the RC/X.I felt that this would be the same compromise as buying a WRX over an Sti.
I bought a 335d instead and had that remapped.Not as fun as my old Impreza but much quicker and better on fuel.
It seems that Subaru have moved on and have left their core fans behind,which is a real shame.They are back tracking a little bit now,but I think that we will have to look elsewhere for a decent,high performance d-Audi maybe?
Baryonyx said:
Max_Torque said:
er, Compression ignition engines have a much faster normally aspirated torque response to throttle application than a spark ignition engine because they run with excess air all the time, hence you just need to squirt more fuel in to get more torque (which can happen on a literally "next cycle" basis (unlike SI engines where you need to wait for cylinder filling to occur).
Also, being non throttled tends to let the turbo maintain speed between things like gear shifts etc.
And as for the rally reps having "pin sharp throttle response" er, not the ones i have ever driven, in fact they usually need a nice bit of left foot braking to really come alive imo........
You seem to be confusing throttle response with power delivery. Rally reps do respond well to left foot braking to keep the rev count high in corners and keep the turbo working. But they also tend to be pretty snappy in terms of actually delivering a sharp throttle response too; revving quickly and in tune with the driver pressing the pedal. Essential in a car like that. Even if they can be a bit laggy and leaden below the boost threshold. Diesel engines can produce power on demand as you suggest, but do any road cars run like that unless they are on a runaway cycle?Also, being non throttled tends to let the turbo maintain speed between things like gear shifts etc.
And as for the rally reps having "pin sharp throttle response" er, not the ones i have ever driven, in fact they usually need a nice bit of left foot braking to really come alive imo........
Even the naturally aspirated diesels with manual throttles feel slow at the pedal. Yes, the engine can produce a surge of power a second or so later but that isn't what I'm talking about.
Assuming we define "throttle response" as the time dependant build up of flywheel torque after a positive throttle application. And as i have said, a compression ignition engine can get to full BMEP exactly 1 cycle after a WOT throttle request.
What you are describing sounds like "low engine rotating/ reciprocating inertia" which is an entirely different matter to "throttle response" !
Diesel is a "Dirty" fuel no matter how you look at it. Nowhere except Europe uses it barring Trucks. A lot of places outlaw them altogether. Personally you only have to look in the air to see the effects. It is more opaque since Diesels became popular. It "may" produce less CO2 but it certainly produce more "C" and that IS more harmful.
CarlT said:
Dan67 said:
what we haven't seen yet is a proper performance orientated diesel engine yet. Suspect one of the Germans will be the first.
saying that some one will show me up here
Define performance? saying that some one will show me up here
3.0 bi-turbo, 308 bhp and 479 lb ft of torque not enough?
Matt UK said:
Fast forward to Nov 2012 and think about the last time you saw a new one. Subaru started making their cars fugly, tried to take them upmarket and finally ignored where it all started and turned their contender into a hatchback. Mitsubishi development seemed intent on turning their car into a jet fighter, with price tags and service plan in line with the theme.
Last time I saw one? Thursday. STi hatchback.Fugly Subarus? Each to their own, but apart from the bugeye I think they all look nice. I used to dislike the hatchback, but like it a lot now.
Evo servicing? Hasn't that gone from 4500 mile intervals to 9000 miles with the Evo X? (And I believe the frequent servicing was not much more than an oil change.)
Edited by xRIEx on Sunday 18th November 10:45
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