Heroes to zeroes!
Discussion
Which car manufacturers have completely lost the plot in your opinion? The most obvious one that I can think of is Peugeot but that's hardly newsworthy ie - they used to make attractive cars that were good to drive and for some reason decided to go in another direction. Also, Rover (RIP) - still in the top 10 bestsellers in the 90s and considered to be a cut above the mainstream but now no-one wants them. In more recent times, Honda seem to have lost the plot (no Type-Rs and the Civic, which was their most interesting car has gotten uglier IMHO). Also Alfa Romeo. Until fairly recently, they made some of the best looking cars on the road (147, 156, 159 etc) and now they only sell two models. The MiTo, which is a bit of an acquired taste and is basically a Punto underneath and the Giulietta, which is alright but not as pretty as the car that it replaces.
In the interests of balance, I would nominate Skoda and Kia as zeroes to heroes. If you had asked me, even five years ago whether I would buy a Skoda or Kia, it would have been a definite no. Now Skodas are just as good as, much better value and more interesting than the VW equivalent (in most cases) and Kia have started making some very decent, good-looking cars.
Who are your heroes to zeroes (and vice versa)?
In the interests of balance, I would nominate Skoda and Kia as zeroes to heroes. If you had asked me, even five years ago whether I would buy a Skoda or Kia, it would have been a definite no. Now Skodas are just as good as, much better value and more interesting than the VW equivalent (in most cases) and Kia have started making some very decent, good-looking cars.
Who are your heroes to zeroes (and vice versa)?
MajorTom said:
Jaguar 
Not sure if serious!?Their current range is probably the best they've had in the last 10-15 years tbh. Whereas previously they would have been purchased out of a sense of loyalty/patriotism, now they are probably technical equals to their German rivals and worth buying on merit.
kambites said:
BMW - there was a time (not that long ago) when mainstream BMWs were genuinely entertaining things to drive but these days they're just another manufacturer of numb feeling, over-sprung, over-wheeled shopping cars.
This. I used to be in awe of the M3 and M5 and loved the instantly recognisable tone of a BMW straight six. Then they hired Bangle to make their cars look s
t, built loads of crap no-one wants like 5-series GT's and the X1 and started fitting boring sounding turboed four pots in everything.rohrl said:
kambites said:
BMW - there was a time (not that long ago) when mainstream BMWs were genuinely entertaining things to drive but these days they're just another manufacturer of numb feeling, over-sprung, over-wheeled shopping cars.
This. I used to be in awe of the M3 and M5 and loved the instantly recognisable tone of a BMW straight six. Then they hired Bangle to make their cars look st, built loads of crap no-one wants like 5-series GT's and the X1 and started fitting boring sounding turboed four pots in everything.Despite the GT86 (which in any case isn't a car developed solely by them), I'd vote for Toyota.
Oh yes, they've always churned out dross like the Corolla and Starlet but they also used to have models that - personally - I always fancied: MR2 (of all flavours), Celicas (especially the first and last models), and Supras (of all flavours).
Now their showrooms seem to resemble a Euronics outlet.
For a zero to hero
I'm actually thinking Bentley, but as more of a hero-to-zero-to-hero. Think 1950's Continental R Series I (and, indeed, Series II) which were the preserve of the discerning rich. Powerful, discrete cars, and very desirable and expensive. Very Hero. Then, for about 20-odd years, they produced nothing more than thinly disguised, badge-engineered Rolls-Royces. Quite Zero. Thankfully, since the Mulsanne Turbo & Turbo R, the Hero count has been increasing along with sales. OK, many of the new sales may be courtesy of footballists and such like, but Bentley in rude health has to be a good thing for the car world.
Oh yes, they've always churned out dross like the Corolla and Starlet but they also used to have models that - personally - I always fancied: MR2 (of all flavours), Celicas (especially the first and last models), and Supras (of all flavours).
Now their showrooms seem to resemble a Euronics outlet.
For a zero to hero
I'm actually thinking Bentley, but as more of a hero-to-zero-to-hero. Think 1950's Continental R Series I (and, indeed, Series II) which were the preserve of the discerning rich. Powerful, discrete cars, and very desirable and expensive. Very Hero. Then, for about 20-odd years, they produced nothing more than thinly disguised, badge-engineered Rolls-Royces. Quite Zero. Thankfully, since the Mulsanne Turbo & Turbo R, the Hero count has been increasing along with sales. OK, many of the new sales may be courtesy of footballists and such like, but Bentley in rude health has to be a good thing for the car world.
It saddens me the way Alfa Romeo are heading, and Lancia were the ultimate hero to zero.
BMW....don't know. I understand the logic, but I'm not sure they've cocked it away as much as others have.
I'd actually put a special mention in for Audi. I realise I might be alone on it (this is personal opinion afterall), but back in the days the build quality was a cut above the rest. Nowadays it's still good, but so are Kia! The engineering was interesting (5 cyl, Quattro system, aerodynamics etc), if flawed (north/south FWD nose heavy things). It wasn't so much about the image like it is with Merc, it was more about the cars. Like it should be.
These days they're re-hashed Volkswagens available in 50 shades of grey. The S-Line part of them makes me shudder - it's just simply about the badge. They all bore me to tears, even the RS models (which I'd probably love if I drove one). I can't think of a single Audi I'd be excited to have anything to do with that isn't 20 + years old.
But.....they're not the worst offender. It's still Peugeot, easily. They've gone from being one of the best to one of the worst, and in spectacular fashion. The entire line-up is cack; they're boring to drive (a crime in a Pug), awful-looking and now unreliable (irony is that back in the days when people joked about French cars being unreliable, Peugeots were actually pretty dependable. Now they're generally unreliable!)
So yes, well done Peugeot. You've gone from making the all-round best small hatch there ever was (306....in my humble opinion) to the worst! You've ruined all the cred you built up with the best hot hatches money could buy and you've soiled the Pininfarina badge forever.
BMW....don't know. I understand the logic, but I'm not sure they've cocked it away as much as others have.
I'd actually put a special mention in for Audi. I realise I might be alone on it (this is personal opinion afterall), but back in the days the build quality was a cut above the rest. Nowadays it's still good, but so are Kia! The engineering was interesting (5 cyl, Quattro system, aerodynamics etc), if flawed (north/south FWD nose heavy things). It wasn't so much about the image like it is with Merc, it was more about the cars. Like it should be.
These days they're re-hashed Volkswagens available in 50 shades of grey. The S-Line part of them makes me shudder - it's just simply about the badge. They all bore me to tears, even the RS models (which I'd probably love if I drove one). I can't think of a single Audi I'd be excited to have anything to do with that isn't 20 + years old.
But.....they're not the worst offender. It's still Peugeot, easily. They've gone from being one of the best to one of the worst, and in spectacular fashion. The entire line-up is cack; they're boring to drive (a crime in a Pug), awful-looking and now unreliable (irony is that back in the days when people joked about French cars being unreliable, Peugeots were actually pretty dependable. Now they're generally unreliable!)
So yes, well done Peugeot. You've gone from making the all-round best small hatch there ever was (306....in my humble opinion) to the worst! You've ruined all the cred you built up with the best hot hatches money could buy and you've soiled the Pininfarina badge forever.
rohrl said:
kambites said:
BMW - there was a time (not that long ago) when mainstream BMWs were genuinely entertaining things to drive but these days they're just another manufacturer of numb feeling, over-sprung, over-wheeled shopping cars.
This. I used to be in awe of the M3 and M5 and loved the instantly recognisable tone of a BMW straight six. Then they hired Bangle to make their cars look st, built loads of crap no-one wants like 5-series GT's and the X1 and started fitting boring sounding turboed four pots in everything.I've been quite disappointed in the direction BMW have been heading of late.
In the past, the emphasis was on engineering first with simple elegant styling. See E34/E39 as particular exmaples. Adverts were short and clever and appealed to the 'in crowd'. You felt there was no superficial rubbish and form followed function, it was non nonsense but proper passion beneath the engineering (I don't believe any of that German cars lack character malarkey).
Now, I'm not sure of their direction.
- ///M is overused. I don't like the fact they refer to the Sport trim as 'M Sport'.
- The lack of an M Z4 says a lot
- The presence of an M-X5 and M-X6 says even more
- I find the 'niche' cars (X6, 5 Series GT etc) to be the antithesis of what BMW stood for in the past.
- 'Joy' f
k off.- The styling is fussy and inelegant for the most part
- Massive (cracked) alloys, runflats and terrible ride
- Often the cars need the sport kit to look decent (see E60 5 series)
- The dropping of the n/a straight six
The engines are however still probably the best around. The performance and economy balance is very impressive - some of the mpg figures (given the performance) is staggering.
But, companies have to move with the times. To BMW's credit, they have record profits, record sales and expanding markets. However, it is a brand that in my mind was always geared to the enthusiast and I think they've lost that angle of late. There is light at the end of the tunnel, the recent 1M and M135i shows they still make decent drivers cars but they "ain't what they used to be". I do think now it's a case of ///Marketing first, uber-engineering second.
AndyBrew said:
Not found my V8 M3 that boring to drive, I quite like it.
the point with BMW is the cheapening of the brand because every Tom, Dick and Harriet with a company car has got a 320d(tax)efficient dynamics in either flat white, flat red or re sale silver ... and do they give a flying that it;s RWD probably not ... Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff