Auto gearbox - yuck!
Discussion
I had thought that modern auto gearboxes were leaps and bounds ahead of those of yesteryear (ignoring clutchless manuals, DSG, SMG etc). Yesterday my vehicle went in to have a few things looked at, and they lent me exactly the same model, but with an auto box (5 speed auto vs 6 speed manual). So for the first time I've been able to do a back to back comparison.
Now, I rarely drive auto's, but this thing was truly awful. Throttle response was non existent - pulling out of a junction actually felt dangerous as nothing happened (not even an increase in revs) for what was probably only 1/4 of a second, but it felt like an eternity. It did this from stationary, and at all rolling speeds. Not sure what was happening, but I suspect it was kicking down to first, rather than downshifting before hand in anticipation.
Secondly, the torque converter totally wrecked the usable power band of the engine. Peak torque is at 1400 through to 2000rpm, but the converter was just slipping through this range, and all you got was a non linear elastic band sensation.
It also seemed too eager to kick down two gears at once, and I often found it revving near it's 4k rpm red line. In my manual version, I hardly ever take it past 3k rpm in normal driving, as it feels well past it's peak, and the next gear is much more use. The auto never really felt like it was in the gear I was expecting.
Ironically, the ratios of the 5 speed auto felt more usable than the 6 speed manual - 6th feels to tall for my liking, it's useless for cruising below 60mph, and at motorway speeds you still end up changing down for any moderate incline. The auto felt loads slower to accelerate, but I'd often glance at the speedo and realise I was going faster than I thought I was.
Was this just a bad example of what a modern auto trans can do, am I expecting too much, or are others better? Maybe it's just me being too much of a control freak about it. I've fancied a Jag for a while (XJR), but the modern ones don't have a manual option, which has always steered me away.
Now, I rarely drive auto's, but this thing was truly awful. Throttle response was non existent - pulling out of a junction actually felt dangerous as nothing happened (not even an increase in revs) for what was probably only 1/4 of a second, but it felt like an eternity. It did this from stationary, and at all rolling speeds. Not sure what was happening, but I suspect it was kicking down to first, rather than downshifting before hand in anticipation.
Secondly, the torque converter totally wrecked the usable power band of the engine. Peak torque is at 1400 through to 2000rpm, but the converter was just slipping through this range, and all you got was a non linear elastic band sensation.
It also seemed too eager to kick down two gears at once, and I often found it revving near it's 4k rpm red line. In my manual version, I hardly ever take it past 3k rpm in normal driving, as it feels well past it's peak, and the next gear is much more use. The auto never really felt like it was in the gear I was expecting.
Ironically, the ratios of the 5 speed auto felt more usable than the 6 speed manual - 6th feels to tall for my liking, it's useless for cruising below 60mph, and at motorway speeds you still end up changing down for any moderate incline. The auto felt loads slower to accelerate, but I'd often glance at the speedo and realise I was going faster than I thought I was.
Was this just a bad example of what a modern auto trans can do, am I expecting too much, or are others better? Maybe it's just me being too much of a control freak about it. I've fancied a Jag for a while (XJR), but the modern ones don't have a manual option, which has always steered me away.
mjb1 said:
Yesterday my vehicle went in to have a few things looked at, and they lent me exactly the same model, but with an auto box (5 speed auto vs 6 speed manual). So for the first time I've been able to do a back to back comparison.
Now, I rarely drive auto's, but this thing was truly awful. Throttle response was non existent.
Secondly, the torque converter totally wrecked the usable power band of the engine.
We'll just have to assume you normally drive a 25 year old Nissan....Now, I rarely drive auto's, but this thing was truly awful. Throttle response was non existent.
Secondly, the torque converter totally wrecked the usable power band of the engine.
You need to adjust your driving style for an auto. I think it's unfair to do a back to back comparison in a car which it otherwise the same. Whilst the engine and manual gearbox combination in your car may be well suited, the auto you tried may simply be a bad match for that engine.
As with any engine/transmission variants, there will always be good ones and bad ones and some that just dont feel right.
I used to have a V8 Lexus with an auto box which had a lot of torque and diddnt really need to change gear that often to make swift progress. The gear changes were seamless and it got on with things nicely.
I now have a new sensible family Mazda 6 with an auto box that is completely different to drive, mostly because it's 2.5 4 cylinder engine means the gearbox has to do a lot more work.
Yes, I find it annoying that it drops two gears at once before racing for the red line when you floor it, but I can always slot it over into "manual" mode.
You need to consider that when driving a manual car you can see what's coming and select the appropriate gear. Even the best auto boxes cant do that and there is only so much they can do to give you the right gear at the right time.
Whilst the "manual" option on my Mazda is simply a method of selecting a ratio in the auto box (its not a DSG type system) it does allow me to hold gears right up to the rev limiter if I want to and will stay in the selected gear right up to the point at which it is about to stall. This works well as it allows me to be in the right gear for a corner or roundabout and avoid a lot of needless changes.
At the same time I can stick it into auto when I feel like it.
As with any engine/transmission variants, there will always be good ones and bad ones and some that just dont feel right.
I used to have a V8 Lexus with an auto box which had a lot of torque and diddnt really need to change gear that often to make swift progress. The gear changes were seamless and it got on with things nicely.
I now have a new sensible family Mazda 6 with an auto box that is completely different to drive, mostly because it's 2.5 4 cylinder engine means the gearbox has to do a lot more work.
Yes, I find it annoying that it drops two gears at once before racing for the red line when you floor it, but I can always slot it over into "manual" mode.
You need to consider that when driving a manual car you can see what's coming and select the appropriate gear. Even the best auto boxes cant do that and there is only so much they can do to give you the right gear at the right time.
Whilst the "manual" option on my Mazda is simply a method of selecting a ratio in the auto box (its not a DSG type system) it does allow me to hold gears right up to the rev limiter if I want to and will stay in the selected gear right up to the point at which it is about to stall. This works well as it allows me to be in the right gear for a corner or roundabout and avoid a lot of needless changes.
At the same time I can stick it into auto when I feel like it.
Well I have a 25 year old automatic and it is superb. You hardly notice what gear you are in or when it shifts, you just get an amount of shove proportional to how hard you push the go pedal. I do think that autos only work on big torquey engines though, on a little petrol engine they would be rubbish (which I suspect may be the problem here).
Newer ones are generally much better than older ones, but none that I've used have been close to a manual for responsiveness, changing gear when you want it to instead of sometime later, holding gear when you want it to, etc.
You can learn to plan in advance and drive around it, but if they were really as good as the marketing people say then you wouldn't have to.
You can learn to plan in advance and drive around it, but if they were really as good as the marketing people say then you wouldn't have to.
So was it a Jaguar XJR auto you drove or what? It would help the discussion immensely if you would clarify the two cars you're talking about.
In general, I don't mind auto boxes. For every day cruising and milling about, they are superb. I often get out of my A8 and marvel at how good the box in it is for just pootling about. Of course, a sturdy V8 with a huge powerband attached to the transmission helps, but they can be superbly relaxing. For a spirited drive, it's less use. It never really lets you down in 'D', but sometimes when you're on and off the throttle and brakes it can move up and down gears a little late as it struggles to decode what you're wanting it to do.
The solution to this? Put it in tiptronic mode and select your gears using this. That's what really made me see the beauty of this transmission. Just read a corner as you would in a manual, select the right gear beforehand and it smoothes off the drive considerably. No more jerking or shunting about as the gears change; it does wonders for car stability when you're really pressing on. It's hardly an advanced transmission but it really does it's just well. My complaints about it struggling slightly when you're driving full tilt down tight little B roads is probably not a concern for the majority of A8 owners, so I'm hesitant to blame the car too much. It's auto box was designed to provide a smooth, effortless and torquey drive and it does just that.
One thing which I think skews people's views on automatics is that they often try to fight the transmission. Planning ahead and making your throttle and brake inputs a little earlier goes some way to pre-empting the transmission lag. If you can't put it in a tiptronic or semi-auto mode then you may have to accept that you'll always be at odds with the car on some roads. Another thing that adds a general malaise to the perception of autos is the fact that a lot of people only spend a little time with them on a puny shopping car whilst their manual pride and joy is off the road. That sort of experience could spoil anybody's day!
For the record, I prefer a manual. It just so happens my car isn't available in manual in the UK. Overall, it doesn't spoil the car, and is surprisingly pleasant to use. YMMV.
In general, I don't mind auto boxes. For every day cruising and milling about, they are superb. I often get out of my A8 and marvel at how good the box in it is for just pootling about. Of course, a sturdy V8 with a huge powerband attached to the transmission helps, but they can be superbly relaxing. For a spirited drive, it's less use. It never really lets you down in 'D', but sometimes when you're on and off the throttle and brakes it can move up and down gears a little late as it struggles to decode what you're wanting it to do.
The solution to this? Put it in tiptronic mode and select your gears using this. That's what really made me see the beauty of this transmission. Just read a corner as you would in a manual, select the right gear beforehand and it smoothes off the drive considerably. No more jerking or shunting about as the gears change; it does wonders for car stability when you're really pressing on. It's hardly an advanced transmission but it really does it's just well. My complaints about it struggling slightly when you're driving full tilt down tight little B roads is probably not a concern for the majority of A8 owners, so I'm hesitant to blame the car too much. It's auto box was designed to provide a smooth, effortless and torquey drive and it does just that.
One thing which I think skews people's views on automatics is that they often try to fight the transmission. Planning ahead and making your throttle and brake inputs a little earlier goes some way to pre-empting the transmission lag. If you can't put it in a tiptronic or semi-auto mode then you may have to accept that you'll always be at odds with the car on some roads. Another thing that adds a general malaise to the perception of autos is the fact that a lot of people only spend a little time with them on a puny shopping car whilst their manual pride and joy is off the road. That sort of experience could spoil anybody's day!
For the record, I prefer a manual. It just so happens my car isn't available in manual in the UK. Overall, it doesn't spoil the car, and is surprisingly pleasant to use. YMMV.
Edited by Baryonyx on Wednesday 5th December 00:22
chris182 said:
Well I have a 25 year old automatic and it is superb. You hardly notice what gear you are in or when it shifts, you just get an amount of shove proportional to how hard you push the go pedal. I do think that autos only work on big torquey engines though, on a little petrol engine they would be rubbish (which I suspect may be the problem here).
Baryonyx said:
So was it a Jaguar XJR auto you drove or what? It would help the discussion immensely if you would clarify the two cars you're talking about.
No, not the Jag, unfortunately.It's a bit embarrassing, this being pistonheads and all, but it's an Isuzu double cab pickup. Both are near enough brand new. I don't think the problem is a lack of torque - 2.5 twin turbo diesel (supposedly 400Nm flat from 1400 to 2000 rpm). It redlines at 4k rpm, so it must be one of the lowest revving, least peaky engines fitted to any current car sized vehicle. I wouldn't say I was trying to fight the box or anything, I was hoping to just drive it and forget about the gears completely. But after a few miles, and several occassions thinking 'what the hell is it up to', I started paying a lot more attention to what it was doing.
I don't do any (deliberate) off roading, but I really wouldn't fancy the auto for that.
Big News said:
It's far from the most sophisticated thing in the world, but my Volvo's 4-speed auto changes gear when I want it to, kicks down quickly, and shifts very smoothly. Not much more I could ask of it really
Yep my volvo 4speed auto is bang on the money - I think with autos it helps to have a powerful engine to help mask the slipping effect produced by the torque converter - in really powerful cars it can be useful for getting the power down - think American muscle cars Autos sap power and you've only got 69bhp per tonne to start with so it's never going to be fun to drive. Try a proper car with an auto before you write them off, I've run several V8 Disco autos and they are great.
Off-road autos are a mixed blessing - they are very flexible and difficult to stall going up hill but offer less engine braking when descending.
Off-road autos are a mixed blessing - they are very flexible and difficult to stall going up hill but offer less engine braking when descending.
Caulkhead said:
Autos sap power and you've only got 69bhp per tonne to start with so it's never going to be fun to drive. Try a proper car with an auto before you write them off, I've run several V8 Disco autos and they are great.
Off-road autos are a mixed blessing - they are very flexible and difficult to stall going up hill but offer less engine braking when descending.
I wasn't expecting it to be fast, sporty, or fun to drive (although I think it's just over 80hp/tonne, not sure how you calculated it though). I was just surprised at how poorly it compared to the manual version of the same vehicle.Off-road autos are a mixed blessing - they are very flexible and difficult to stall going up hill but offer less engine braking when descending.
I've just had a Hyundai i45 on hire, 2.4 litre with a 6 speed 'normal' autobox. It was surprisingly good, I'm not normally a fan of autos but this got on with its job very well.
They are improving, I think it was perhaps the package rather than the fact it was an auto. I wouldn't be surprised if an Isuzu 4. Speed auto derived from 20+ year old truck technology.
They are improving, I think it was perhaps the package rather than the fact it was an auto. I wouldn't be surprised if an Isuzu 4. Speed auto derived from 20+ year old truck technology.
You need to try a proper auto transmission/engine setup.
I've got polar opposite automatic cars at the moment. An RS6 and a Yaris and find both great to drive. The Yaris 1.3 engine seems peppy and whoever developed the gearbox did a good job of matching shiftpoints with revs to make the most of the relatively little power available.
However there are some woeful combinations, an old Rover 200 1.3 auto I had the mispleasure of been in was horrific.
I've got polar opposite automatic cars at the moment. An RS6 and a Yaris and find both great to drive. The Yaris 1.3 engine seems peppy and whoever developed the gearbox did a good job of matching shiftpoints with revs to make the most of the relatively little power available.
However there are some woeful combinations, an old Rover 200 1.3 auto I had the mispleasure of been in was horrific.
You could do a lot worse than actually test driving the car you are interested in. To dismiss an automatic XJR because of how an automatic Isuzu drove is kind of ridiculous.
Personally I am a big fan of automatics, have had a few and will continue to buy them. As mentioned the engine they are mated to is very important and you can get "bad" combinations. My current Accord is pretty dismal, whereas my previous LS400 was a joy and the transmission in the Accord is 10 years newer with nearly half the miles on it as the Lexus.
It's not just conventional torque converter automatics that can have issues. I had a 2.0 litre petrol Focus as a hire car on holiday and the 6 speed automated transmission in that was just woeful. It worked great if you floored the accelerator, seamlessly shifting through the gears, but at low speeds (think crawling through a car park)it kept trying to change up too soon and would tie itself in knots. A quick prod of the pedal and the car would start bucking, not sure if it should change up or down.
Personally I am a big fan of automatics, have had a few and will continue to buy them. As mentioned the engine they are mated to is very important and you can get "bad" combinations. My current Accord is pretty dismal, whereas my previous LS400 was a joy and the transmission in the Accord is 10 years newer with nearly half the miles on it as the Lexus.
It's not just conventional torque converter automatics that can have issues. I had a 2.0 litre petrol Focus as a hire car on holiday and the 6 speed automated transmission in that was just woeful. It worked great if you floored the accelerator, seamlessly shifting through the gears, but at low speeds (think crawling through a car park)it kept trying to change up too soon and would tie itself in knots. A quick prod of the pedal and the car would start bucking, not sure if it should change up or down.
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