Unknown modifications and insurance
Discussion
Chaps and chapesses,
Where would someone stand if they had a car that was modified but the owner/driver didn't actually know and had therefore not declared the modification to their insurers. Say the car had slightly different suspension or an updated fuel pump. The owner bought the car second hand and wasn't told by the seller so didn't ever know or realise.
While I'm asking, what are your views on something like brake pads or discs that are not really a modification, but are merely slightly better quality than manufacturer replacements so you have fitted those instead. Should they be declared to insurance?
Thanks TB
Where would someone stand if they had a car that was modified but the owner/driver didn't actually know and had therefore not declared the modification to their insurers. Say the car had slightly different suspension or an updated fuel pump. The owner bought the car second hand and wasn't told by the seller so didn't ever know or realise.
While I'm asking, what are your views on something like brake pads or discs that are not really a modification, but are merely slightly better quality than manufacturer replacements so you have fitted those instead. Should they be declared to insurance?
Thanks TB
If strictly by the book, it is entirely the owners fault. They should have an independent inspection at a garage if they are unsure if there are any modifications on the vehicle.
In reality, if it's minor things that could never really be noticed or make any considerable difference, and the car is involved in an accident then not too much is said. Depends a lot on the person driving (i.e. if it's a 50 year old lady with a small suspension upgrade or a 17 year old with a K&N Air filter on a Corsa). Unfortunately, can be a little stereotypical when it comes to discretion.
In reality, if it's minor things that could never really be noticed or make any considerable difference, and the car is involved in an accident then not too much is said. Depends a lot on the person driving (i.e. if it's a 50 year old lady with a small suspension upgrade or a 17 year old with a K&N Air filter on a Corsa). Unfortunately, can be a little stereotypical when it comes to discretion.
Greengecko said:
They should have an independent inspection at a garage...
Yeah right, cos all garages know evrything about every car ever. You could get signed letter from the manager and it'd mean feck all.Really, you can only be as sensible as possible, and talk to the insurer and discuss what you're worried about.
Topbox said:
While I'm asking, what are your views on something like brake pads or discs that are not really a modification, but are merely slightly better quality than manufacturer replacements so you have fitted those instead. Should they be declared to insurance?
Thanks TB
I notify everything and let the insurer decide what's important. I told my insurer I was planning to fit uprated brake pads and they said they weren't bothered, but at least that way nothing has been hidden from them.Thanks TB
It's difficult to call. Every car I've ever bought has been at least a few years old, with some 20 years old or over. Simple things such as non-original tyres could be classed as a modification to the manufacturer's original specification. I always assume that, as long as everything is a standard replacement part, then it doesn't need to be declared.
Fuel pump was just something I plucked out of my head!
I would never knowingly deceive my insurers, I have been looking for a new car and it occurred to me that this could happen. Im also not going to pay a garage to check every single part fitted to the car!! The tyre issue is an interesting point as you couldn't buy the original tyres that were on it when it left the factory. I've never told insurers about what tyres were on the car as I don't deem them to be a modification but I can see how it could be argued that they are.
I would never knowingly deceive my insurers, I have been looking for a new car and it occurred to me that this could happen. Im also not going to pay a garage to check every single part fitted to the car!! The tyre issue is an interesting point as you couldn't buy the original tyres that were on it when it left the factory. I've never told insurers about what tyres were on the car as I don't deem them to be a modification but I can see how it could be argued that they are.
cpas said:
It's difficult to call. Every car I've ever bought has been at least a few years old, with some 20 years old or over. Simple things such as non-original tyres could be classed as a modification to the manufacturer's original specification. I always assume that, as long as everything is a standard replacement part, then it doesn't need to be declared.
You are supposed to tell the insurance company if anything will make "a material difference" to the risk, according to all the policies I've ever had. So when I found out (after trying to replace it) that a previous owner had replaced the sealed beams on my car with halogens, I didn't tell the insurance company - no material difference.I also replaced the horns with a non standard part because the old ones didn't work, but again, no material difference. It doesn't play La Cuccaracha or anything.
But the lowered suspension and straight through exhaust are declared. They are quite obviously aftermarket, and designed to make the car not as the manufacturer designed it.
TBH I wouldn't count tyres, brake pads/discs, havent told them I have a new clutch thats a different make, due to the fact that they are consumables
Should you tell them if you use pattern parts to replace items or is it ok as they are to original spec?
Just have to make a judgement call really, aslong as they don't affect the power or looks I don't think they will be bothered
Should you tell them if you use pattern parts to replace items or is it ok as they are to original spec?
Just have to make a judgement call really, aslong as they don't affect the power or looks I don't think they will be bothered
I think it depends on the circumstances and the insurer, there is no hard and fast rule but if you buy a 1 litre shopping trolley with a 5 inch exhaust and coloured wheels and then try and say you thought the car came like that from the factory then it would be obvious you were talking crap.
If your car had uprated spark plugs, or an aftermarket panel filter and you didn't know (not everyone checks things like that) then I'd say it isn't a major thing.
Technically most insurers want you to declare ANYTHING that is not a factory fit item, whether it's a dealer fit or you've gone to halfords.
I think common sense has to be applied in some cases, e.g if when changing the brake pads you get slightly uprated pads and don't declare them it won't be the end of the world, but if you have a 4 pot conversion then that's something that would need to be declared.
For those that buy cars and are unsure whether something is standard or not, I think ignorance only goes so far...
If your car had uprated spark plugs, or an aftermarket panel filter and you didn't know (not everyone checks things like that) then I'd say it isn't a major thing.
Technically most insurers want you to declare ANYTHING that is not a factory fit item, whether it's a dealer fit or you've gone to halfords.
I think common sense has to be applied in some cases, e.g if when changing the brake pads you get slightly uprated pads and don't declare them it won't be the end of the world, but if you have a 4 pot conversion then that's something that would need to be declared.
For those that buy cars and are unsure whether something is standard or not, I think ignorance only goes so far...
Edited by pops and bangs on Wednesday 5th December 22:29
I've often pondered this. Say one in five Audi S3 drivers chips their car (very easy, effective and invisible way of boosting power considerably). Then if you buy a 10 year old five owner S3, chances are its been chipped. But most buyers wouldn't have a clue, may not even be aware if chips.
So say a chipped car is innocently bought and insured as unmodifird, and ends up in a big expensive crash, car gets inspected, power boost found, what then?
I bet there are hundreds, maybe thousands of people out there completely unaware that their secondhand car is modified.
So say a chipped car is innocently bought and insured as unmodifird, and ends up in a big expensive crash, car gets inspected, power boost found, what then?
I bet there are hundreds, maybe thousands of people out there completely unaware that their secondhand car is modified.
As far as third parties are concerned section 148 part 2 should be your friend
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/sectio...
For your own claim you'll have to convince them the mud flaps although an option are not a material change
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/sectio...
For your own claim you'll have to convince them the mud flaps although an option are not a material change
It does seem to depend on the insurance company though. A few of us MX5 types were talking about this, I'd declared my exhaust which didn't impact my premium but never thought to declare the brake pads.
Others had some very strange results declaring stuff. For example, two different people had serious insurance issues when declaring the roll over bar, both had been fitted for their own safety but one company refused insurance on the basis of it and another added a massive premium increase. Despite it being a safety feature in the owners eyes the insurance company saw it as a racing modification.
As someone else said, declare everything you know about and let them worry about it.
Others had some very strange results declaring stuff. For example, two different people had serious insurance issues when declaring the roll over bar, both had been fitted for their own safety but one company refused insurance on the basis of it and another added a massive premium increase. Despite it being a safety feature in the owners eyes the insurance company saw it as a racing modification.
As someone else said, declare everything you know about and let them worry about it.
poing said:
It does seem to depend on the insurance company though. A few of us MX5 types were talking about this, I'd declared my exhaust which didn't impact my premium but never thought to declare the brake pads.
Others had some very strange results declaring stuff. For example, two different people had serious insurance issues when declaring the roll over bar, both had been fitted for their own safety but one company refused insurance on the basis of it and another added a massive premium increase. Despite it being a safety feature in the owners eyes the insurance company saw it as a racing modification.
As someone else said, declare everything you know about and let them worry about it.
I had something similar when I was enquiring about an uprated anti roll bar. It whacked the premium right up and after getting them to speak to their underwriters about why it had put the price up so much etc, it turned out they deemed a modification like that to only be necessary if the car is driven hard, thus making it more likely for it to be in a crash. Uprated turbos etc I can understand but not something like that.Others had some very strange results declaring stuff. For example, two different people had serious insurance issues when declaring the roll over bar, both had been fitted for their own safety but one company refused insurance on the basis of it and another added a massive premium increase. Despite it being a safety feature in the owners eyes the insurance company saw it as a racing modification.
As someone else said, declare everything you know about and let them worry about it.
twink said:
I had something similar when I was enquiring about an uprated anti roll bar. It whacked the premium right up and after getting them to speak to their underwriters about why it had put the price up so much etc, it turned out they deemed a modification like that to only be necessary if the car is driven hard, thus making it more likely for it to be in a crash. Uprated turbos etc I can understand but not something like that.
I can see the logic behind it though, don't get me wrong I hate car insurers with a passion as car insuance is the most random thing I've ever seen but an uprated anti roll bar is not going to be necessary (or that noticeable) if your going to drive slowly round corners etcAri said:
I've often pondered this. Say one in five Audi S3 drivers chips their car (very easy, effective and invisible way of boosting power considerably). Then if you buy a 10 year old five owner S3, chances are its been chipped. But most buyers wouldn't have a clue, may not even be aware if chips.
So say a chipped car is innocently bought and insured as unmodifird, and ends up in a big expensive crash, car gets inspected, power boost found, what then?
I bet there are hundreds, maybe thousands of people out there completely unaware that their secondhand car is modified.
Quite true, especially when dealers are remapping cars pre-delivery.. or they map their demos which are then sold on..So say a chipped car is innocently bought and insured as unmodifird, and ends up in a big expensive crash, car gets inspected, power boost found, what then?
I bet there are hundreds, maybe thousands of people out there completely unaware that their secondhand car is modified.
The question I have is do insurers have the ability to check ECUs for modification ?
Stuff like wheels, big brakes, suspension, intercoolers etc are going to be easy to spot, but an ecu remap in an undrivable car? tricky?
I know one manufacturer who will send an ecu back to the factory/source to detect a remap to prevent warranty fraud - if they cannot easily provide the ability for dealers to assert the state of an ecu how are insurers going to cater for all the different makes out there ?
Not advocating anyone tries to defraud their insurer, (all my mods are declared) but curious as to how much they'd really know/be able to find out.
ETA: I'd be careful about tyres too, didn't some people have issues when fitting winter tyres ?
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