Sanity check my mobile guys' findings please

[eltax91]

THREAD UPDATED 27/12/12

Hi guys, I have a LR 90 as an off road weekend toy which I had some starting issues with, replaced battery and starter 6 months and 600 miles back. Currently had my mobile guy around to do a timing belt changed, but when we cranked engine over it cranks very slowly, and won't fire. These were the symptoms that were shown but cured by replacing battery and starter previously. So, the diagnostics the mobile guy undertook were:

• bridge block to chassis with jump lead, no better
• Test voltage from battery, 12.5v
• test voltage from solenoid supply to engine block, same 12.5v
• test the 'inside' of the solenoid to engine block, as engine cranked over for a second, voltage shows as 9v

So, the mobile guy says the solenoid is faulty and I need to swap the starter again.

Question is, is he right??

Edited by eltax91 on Thursday 27th December 16:00

[Steffan]

eltax91 said:

Hi guys, I have a LR 90 as an off road weekend toy which I had some starting issues with, replaced battery and starter 6 months and 600 miles back. Currently had my mobile guy around to do a timing belt changed, but when we cranked engine over it cranks very slowly, and won't fire. These were the symptoms that were shown but cured by replacing battery and starter previously. So, the diagnostics the mobile guy undertook were:

• bridge block to chassis with jump lead, no better
• Test voltage from battery, 12.5v
• test voltage from solenoid supply to engine block, same 12.5v
• test the 'inside' of the solenoid to engine block, as engine cranked over for a second, voltage shows as 9v

So, the mobile guy says the solenoid is faulty and I need to swap the starter again.

Question is, is he right??

Possibly but I would not expect slow cranking from a solenoid fault. Sounds like starter motor, battery or faulty connections to me. Check and recheck all the connections including the solenoid operating circuits. Good Luck. My last LR was a 1954 in excellent order. The Burman recirculating ball steering was fun handled like a boat. In heavy seas.

[Turn7]

Has the battery and starter got a good clean proper earting point ?

[john2443]

Was it starting before he changed the belt? If so it seems a bit suspicious that it now doesn't start.

I wonder what the voltage from the inside of the solenoid is on a good one? Could that also mean that when the starter's turning it pulls so much from the battery that the voltage drops because that battery isn't fully charged?

What happens if you try to start it with jumps leads on, that would reduce the possibility that it's the battery.

[eltax91]

Turn7 said:

Has the battery and starter got a good clean proper earting point ?

Battery has, it's in a nice clean compartment under seat. Starter, not sure. But having put the jump lead from block to chassis we have ruled out and earth no?

To answer question on if it started before, it did have issues which I thought I had cured with recon starter and new battery. His only thought is that fuel pump timing is out.

I will get the battery on a full deep cycle charge to be certain and go from there....

[davepoth]

Turn7 said:

Has the battery and starter got a good clean proper earting point ?

This times about a billion. Check the earths. My mate had an MGB that refused to crank, but with a jumplead between the lifting eye on the cylinder head and a bit of chassis that was scraped clean, it turned just fine.

[Steffan]

eltax91 said:

Turn7 said:

Has the battery and starter got a good clean proper earting point ?

Battery has, it's in a nice clean compartment under seat. Starter, not sure. But having put the jump lead from block to chassis we have ruled out and earth no?

To answer question on if it started before, it did have issues which I thought I had cured with recon starter and new battery. His only thought is that fuel pump timing is out.

I will get the battery on a full deep cycle charge to be certain and go from there....

It is odd that this has occurred after a cambelt change. If the car had been working properly before it does suggest something has been misplaced in the engine work. I think the earlier fault is a red herring here. If it was cured it was cured. I would suspect a dislodged wire or other fault related to the cambelt change.

[Benrad]

Could the timing be set wrong, a tooth out perhaps? Incorrect valve timing could be increasing the compression in the engine that the starter has to overcome?

[eltax91]

Benrad said:

Could the timing be set wrong, a tooth out perhaps? Incorrect valve timing could be increasing the compression in the engine that the starter has to overcome?

It's a fair point, but we don't think it is. We left a suitable locking tool (9.5mm drill bit) in the fuel pump pulley. The crank remained at TDC and the camshaft pulley remained still. We have had the added complication of having to remove the timing case and send it for repair, so it's possible.

We have spun the crankshaft over for 2 revolutions back to TDC and all the timing marks line up correctly.

For what it's worth, my mobile guy is landy specific, he's torn apart many a defender in his time, so I'm confident (as far as i can be) that he knows how to time it back up.

[larrylamb11]

Bad earth, either on the starter motor itself, or the engine to the chassis - re-check and clean all the earths first before changing components. As another check, I would run an earth via jump lead directly from the battery -ve to the actual starter motor and try again.
I had similar recently where a re-con gearbox had been fitted - initially it started spot on, then it failed to start giving symptoms of dying battery. Cause turned out to be a bad earth on the gearbox (which had been painted in the recon) - earth cleaned, full functionality restored. Ensure you have good earths first.

[papercup]

davepoth said:

Turn7 said:

Has the battery and starter got a good clean proper earting point ?

This times about a billion. Check the earths. My mate had an MGB that refused to crank, but with a jumplead between the lifting eye on the cylinder head and a bit of chassis that was scraped clean, it turned just fine.

+ several.

My RX-7 after the V8 went in; started fine, even with the tiny dry clell race battery. Went to a car stereo place for some work and they earthed the battery to the body underneath, near the rear seats (the battery sat in the rear seat well). Car would hardly turn at all when cold, and not at all when hot (compression was higher). It turns out the metal on the body on the underneath of the rear seats is like a tin can, and useless for an earth. We ran an earth up to the block and it cranked like a crazy thing after that.

[Essel]

An apt topic as my 90 is charging outside work as I type. Normally fine, but short journeys to work and cold weather is a killer. My sons N/A 90 had the same problem - slow cranking, wouldn't start. I melted the insulation on some cheap jump leads on that one. Solved it by putting in the biggest tractor battery that would fit under the seat. Just wouldn't seem to spin fast enough on a standard battery, especially if it was cold.

[thescamper]

Sounds like a voltage drop issue to me, clean every connection you can and then clean them again, I had this on an old Rangie and it was down to the earth lead to the chassis had had the bolt changed and it appeared tight but it wasn't clamping the ring terminal.

[littleredrooster]

eltax91 said:

...as engine cranked over for a second, voltage shows as 9v...

Here's the biggest clue in the symptoms you've posted. 9v cranking is no good for starting an engine and points to a flat or knackered battery. 12.5v across the battery with no load means nothing; only a measurement under load tells you anything about the health of the battery.

Just to double check - put a voltmeter across the battery and crank the engine; anything less than about 10v is no good.

Charge the battery up overnight on a trickle charger and try again, but bear in mind that batteries don't like being left in a state of partial charge for long periods. If the car isn't being used, put a battery conditioner on it while it is stored.

[thinfourth2]

I doudt the earth is a problem

A landrover has a back-up earth cable

The handbrake cable



I'm thinking the mobile guy is right providing he is measuring volts while cranking.


The starter was it a Britpart?

Aka stpart

[Bill]

And batteries also don't like the cold.

Try a proper earth connection between battery -ve and starter, and then a decent jump start. And then both together. It could be a slightly low battery in the cold and a slightly iffy earth.

[eltax91]

The starter was a recon Bosch unit

thinfourth2 said:

I doudt the earth is a problem

A landrover has a back-up earth cable

The handbrake cable



I'm thinking the mobile guy is right providing he is measuring volts while cranking.


The starter was it a Britpart?

Aka stpart

[aka_kerrly]

Just to throw something completely different into the mix.

The starter switch on the ignition barrel can cause bad starting problems. My understanding is that on switch position 1, electrical components receive 12v, then when stage 2 is reached the fuel pump is primed. The final turn of the key should then send 12v+ to the starter, the coil and the fuel pump.

What seems to happen is they become worn out and instead of diverting 12v to primary components required to start the car the switch either powers everything or it seems to waste a lot of power thus sending barely 12v to the starter solenoid or in your case only 9v instead of 12.

Anything less than 12v will barely move an average starter motor.

[eltax91]

Update: spend a good couple of hours under the truck on Xmas eve. Cleaned both earths that lead from battery -ve to gearbox housing and then on to chassis. Still no dice. Battery has been on the conditioner since fitting in June.

Can't get my head around it. Anyone wanna buy a 200 TDi 90, excellent runner.

[eldar]

Does it actually start? even tow start?