Nurburgring Hype for new cars? Why?

[Stevie750iL]

Do any potential buyers of todays super saloons (M5, XFRS) and the likes buy into the published Nurburgring times? I.e. "the new XFRS is 0.0000003 secs quicker around he "ring" " I just feel that this hype has nothing to do with being stuck at a set of lights or blasting up the A82? Surely unless you're a top class racing driver ring times are irrelevant? I know the manufacturers test there because it represents an arduous proving ground that defines cars like the F30 M5 et al. But are they all just jumping on the Ring band wagon or is there evidence to prove (lap times aside) that Ring testing makes a car a worthy purchase? I don't honestly know?

[Strawman]

Stevie750iL said:

I know the manufacturers test there because it represents an arduous proving ground that defines cars like the F30 M5 et al. But are they all just jumping on the Ring band wagon or is there evidence to prove (lap times aside) that Ring testing makes a car a worthy purchase? I don't honestly know?

Fairly unique test circuit though, most race tracks are very smooth and wide whereas the Ring is more like an A road. Manufacturers also like taking cars to snowy wastelands to see if the heaters are up to the task and parts won't fall off at -30c, Porsche usually take new models to the West of Ireland and drive them down crappy bumpy narrow roads to see how the suspension performs.

[mrmr96]

Stevie750iL said:

Do any potential buyers of todays super saloons (M5, XFRS) and the likes buy into the published Nurburgring times? I.e. "the new XFRS is 0.0000003 secs quicker around he "ring" " I just feel that this hype has nothing to do with being stuck at a set of lights or blasting up the A82? Surely unless you're a top class racing driver ring times are irrelevant? I know the manufacturers test there because it represents an arduous proving ground that defines cars like the F30 M5 et al. But are they all just jumping on the Ring band wagon or is there evidence to prove (lap times aside) that Ring testing makes a car a worthy purchase? I don't honestly know?

It's a benchmark, one of many. Get over it.

[Stevie750iL]

Nothing to "get over mate". I just asked a relevant question and in do so I don't expect to receive a reply that sounds condescending! I always thought forums were a base for gathering a wealth of information from posters that were both polite and knowledgable, which to be fair 99.9999% of posters are. But as ever there's always one!

Edited by Stevie750iL on Tuesday 1st January 11:19

[10 Pence Short]

I don't think punters pay any attention to ring times; rather they like the association of "tested at the 'ring".

Manufacturers wanting to highlight a sporting edge of their mainstream models don't see any harm in saying "developed at the legendary Nordschleife...".

[rigga]

Stevie750iL said:

Nothing to "get over mate". I just asked a relevant question and in do so I don't expect to receive a reply that sounds condescending! I always thought forums were a base for gathering a wealth of information from posters that were both polite and knowledgable, which to be fair 99.9999% of posters are. But as ever there's always one!

Edited by Stevie750iL on Tuesday 1st January 11:19

Welcome to pistonheads 2013

[thinfourth2]

10 Pence Short said:

I don't think punters pay any attention to ring times; rather they like the association of "tested at the 'ring".

Manufacturers wanting to highlight a sporting edge of their mainstream models don't see any harm in saying "developed at the legendary Nordschleife...".

No I think lots of blow hards do want to be able to say that their 4 door diesel boredom wagon got round the ring faster then someone else's 4 door diesel boredom wagon.


But anyone who measures their enjoyment of a car with a stop watch is basically a moron

[DrTre]

Can't say I pay particular attention to it (wouldn't have the foggiest what a quick or slow time is tbh) but it's a vaguely more realistic, "real world" yardstick of all-round performance than many other metrics I guess?

Particularly if you were that anal about sector times (if there are such a thing, again I've not a clue).

[davepoth]

If you are buying a sporty car for occasional trackday use, a 'Ring time is a pretty good metric - after all, you want a car that can go quickly around a track, and since pretty much everyone gets a time there it makes it easy to compare like with like.

If you're leasing the four cylinder version of the sporty car it really is just willy waving. The willy waving is more important for the car company in terms of sales though.

[10 Pence Short]

Personally- I'd want a car that was going to be fun on track, rather than simply quick around it. But that's just me.

[Fun Bus]

It is more about durability of cars, and less about how fast a car can get round now I think.

Before a new Jaguar model gets the official sign-off, it has to cover 5,000 miles (390 laps) of the Nordschleife with the car / components not falling more than a certain percentage (can't remember how much now) out of a set benchmark. If something doesn't perform correctly on the 389th lap then they'll make necessary changes and then start the 5,000 miles again. The car is driven very hard too, it's not a leisurely drive!

[thinfourth2]

Fun Bus said:

It is more about durability of cars, and less about how fast a car can get round now I think.

So a ring time of sub 8 minutes mean it may last 8 minutes between breakdowns

Yes AUDI i'm looking at you

[DaveEssex]

My experience of taking part on Sporting Bears Dream Rides is that customers pay for the thrill of getting to the legal speed limit as quick as possible, and not in being driven at speeds beyond the legal limit, which all family cars will do anyway.

[davepoth]

10 Pence Short said:

Personally- I'd want a car that was going to be fun on track, rather than simply quick around it. But that's just me.

True enough, but on the limit handling balance and adjustability is difficult to boil down into an easily comparable metric. Granted some race cars are known to be evil at the ragged edge, but generally if a car goes fast around the Nurburgring it needs to be fairly forgiving due to the scary nature of the place.

[LaurasOtherHalf]

Someone on top gear said its not important therefore it's not important, they know everything about cars you know

[davepoth]

LaurasOtherHalf said:

Someone on top gear said its not important therefore it's not important, they know everything about cars you know

He had a point - for the cars that people buy, it's about as relevant as how well the car flies if you drive it off a big ramp.

[MidnightRunner]

What's a better barometer of performance if not the Ring? Has all types of corners and cambers to test the chassis and sufficient high speed corners/straights to test power.

Agree with the above that a fast car does not equal fun but at the same time the chances of us doing a 6:54 in a Radical is pretty slim. But i do use the Ring as one of many ways of measuring performance, what else is there? Autocar or Top Gear using an airfield certainly doesn't cut it.

[heisthegaffer]

Fun Bus said:

It is more about durability of cars, and less about how fast a car can get round now I think.

Before a new Jaguar model gets the official sign-off, it has to cover 5,000 miles (390 laps) of the Nordschleife with the car / components not falling more than a certain percentage (can't remember how much now) out of a set benchmark. If something doesn't perform correctly on the 389th lap then they'll make necessary changes and then start the 5,000 miles again. The car is driven very hard too, it's not a leisurely drive!

This is one of the many reasons I look at PH, interesting bits of info such as this. I would love to know more about what goes in the design aspect of cars/anything mech really. Fascinating.

I would imagine a few groans when something fails on the 389th lap as I doubt it's too interesting doing laps of the same circuit over and over again. And tiring too. How many drivers are there? Are you one of 'em?

Thanks

[Fun Bus]

heisthegaffer said:

This is one of the many reasons I look at PH, interesting bits of info such as this. I would love to know more about what goes in the design aspect of cars/anything mech really. Fascinating.

I would imagine a few groans when something fails on the 389th lap as I doubt it's too interesting doing laps of the same circuit over and over again. And tiring too. How many drivers are there? Are you one of 'em?

Thanks

I'm not one of them, no. I was a guest of Jaguar at their test centre back in September for a couple of days and learnt a lot.

Have a watch of this video:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Gcosxxs04ds

It'll tell you a lot more than I can. Phil Talboys is a proper petrol head and nice bloke too, he gave us a tour of the facility, aswell as allowing us to play on the 'Ring in XFR's, XJ Supersports and XKR-S with instructors guiding us. I was one of the winners of the PH competition you may have read about.

[eldar]

Fun Bus said:

It is more about durability of cars, and less about how fast a car can get round now I think.

Before a new Jaguar model gets the official sign-off, it has to cover 5,000 miles (390 laps) of the Nordschleife with the car / components not falling more than a certain percentage (can't remember how much now) out of a set benchmark. If something doesn't perform correctly on the 389th lap then they'll make necessary changes and then start the 5,000 miles again. The car is driven very hard too, it's not a leisurely drive!

They used to do similar at Gaydon, 5,000 ( or more) miles of circuits at a set speed/acceleration. Gets boring after a month or two....