Driverless cars.....
Discussion
Not sure its even a word, so please forgive me.... but I cant understand why some companies are spending so much money developing 'driverless' cars.
Is there a market for such a car? Do you want to buy a car that drives itself? Will any government actually ever license the sale of such vehicles? Who is going to allow a driverless car to be legally used on the road? Who is going to 'sign it off' as safe? And how can such vehicles pass any kind of 'safety test' without actually being first licensed for use on the public road?
Technology always fails in these circumstances, so who is going to authorize the use of a driverless car on the roads when it will inevitably fail and need upgrading before the 'teething problems' are sorted?
Is there a market for such a car? Do you want to buy a car that drives itself? Will any government actually ever license the sale of such vehicles? Who is going to allow a driverless car to be legally used on the road? Who is going to 'sign it off' as safe? And how can such vehicles pass any kind of 'safety test' without actually being first licensed for use on the public road?
Technology always fails in these circumstances, so who is going to authorize the use of a driverless car on the roads when it will inevitably fail and need upgrading before the 'teething problems' are sorted?
TTmonkey said:
Not sure its even a word, so please forgive me.... but I cant understand why some companies are spending so much money developing 'driverless' cars.
Is there a market for such a car? Do you want to buy a car that drives itself? Will any government actually ever license the sale of such vehicles? Who is going to allow a driverless car to be legally used on the road? Who is going to 'sign it off' as safe? And how can such vehicles pass any kind of 'safety test' without actually being first licensed for use on the public road?
Technology always fails in these circumstances, so who is going to authorize the use of a driverless car on the roads when it will inevitably fail and need upgrading before the 'teething problems' are sorted?
Google are already doing this. They have half a dozen Prius', some lexus 4x4s and an Audi TT.Is there a market for such a car? Do you want to buy a car that drives itself? Will any government actually ever license the sale of such vehicles? Who is going to allow a driverless car to be legally used on the road? Who is going to 'sign it off' as safe? And how can such vehicles pass any kind of 'safety test' without actually being first licensed for use on the public road?
Technology always fails in these circumstances, so who is going to authorize the use of a driverless car on the roads when it will inevitably fail and need upgrading before the 'teething problems' are sorted?
They've been licensed in Nevada since May 2012 and have been driving about since then, although they always have someone ready on an emergency brake.
They are also legal in California and Florida. The California State Legislature bill to permit them was signed in Google's HQ.
C
Who would be liable if one of these vehicles crashed? One of my colleagues has one of those Ford Focuses that parks itself, which got me thinking... What if there was a glitch and it struck another vehicle while parking itself? Can you imagine the battle you'd have getting the insurance to pay up when they find out you weren't actually in control of the vehicle at the time of the collision? There must be an awful lot of lawyers salivating at the prospect of these vehicles becoming commonplace.
Imagine, perfect lane discipline, all cars doing exactly 70mph.
All synched together, journey times would be hugely reduced, accidents near impossible.
Sleeping on route to work, safely driven home after a night on the beer.
Sounds marvellous mostly.
Not sure how you could have manually controlled cars in the mix though, maybe they would only be allowed on the empty unclassified and B roads.
Actually sounds even better, quick safe travel for the masses and empty side roads for those that actually want to drive.
All synched together, journey times would be hugely reduced, accidents near impossible.
Sleeping on route to work, safely driven home after a night on the beer.
Sounds marvellous mostly.
Not sure how you could have manually controlled cars in the mix though, maybe they would only be allowed on the empty unclassified and B roads.
Actually sounds even better, quick safe travel for the masses and empty side roads for those that actually want to drive.
They need to run, safely, side by side normal road cars without the technology.
Personally, I'd like the idea of getting into the back of a car, going to sleep/watch TV/play games then half and hour later be at work. If I had to sit at the wheel, hand on steering wheel, foot hovering over brakes then I don't see the point. It's just be little more than laser guided cruise control with some limited steering input as well.
It won't happen for a LONG time though, too many external factors (other users, animals, pedestrians/cyclists, weather, inconsistent road surfaces etc.) that require some intelligence/thought from the driver to make certain decisions. Many of these things we think about are subtle but can make quite a difference, getting a robot "brain" (which is effectively what is required) to do all this is WAY off. The physical side of it is relatively simple enough.
Personally, I'd like the idea of getting into the back of a car, going to sleep/watch TV/play games then half and hour later be at work. If I had to sit at the wheel, hand on steering wheel, foot hovering over brakes then I don't see the point. It's just be little more than laser guided cruise control with some limited steering input as well.
It won't happen for a LONG time though, too many external factors (other users, animals, pedestrians/cyclists, weather, inconsistent road surfaces etc.) that require some intelligence/thought from the driver to make certain decisions. Many of these things we think about are subtle but can make quite a difference, getting a robot "brain" (which is effectively what is required) to do all this is WAY off. The physical side of it is relatively simple enough.
The new 2013 E class has the latest technology destined for the car market.
It detects if you wonder over the white line and applies the brakes on one side to get you back in the middle, or something.
We already have cars that park themselves, Disctronic, where the car detects other cars and adjusts the speed, auto dimming high beam headlights etc.
By the time my 3yo will be driving cars will be autonomous and hybrid/electric.
It detects if you wonder over the white line and applies the brakes on one side to get you back in the middle, or something.
We already have cars that park themselves, Disctronic, where the car detects other cars and adjusts the speed, auto dimming high beam headlights etc.
By the time my 3yo will be driving cars will be autonomous and hybrid/electric.
TTmonkey said:
Not sure its even a word, so please forgive me.... but I cant understand why some companies are spending so much money developing 'driverless' cars.
Is there a market for such a car? Do you want to buy a car that drives itself? Will any government actually ever license the sale of such vehicles? Who is going to allow a driverless car to be legally used on the road? Who is going to 'sign it off' as safe? And how can such vehicles pass any kind of 'safety test' without actually being first licensed for use on the public road?
Technology always fails in these circumstances, so who is going to authorize the use of a driverless car on the roads when it will inevitably fail and need upgrading before the 'teething problems' are sorted?
Imagine a driver who has had several million hours driving experience in all types of conditions, how safe would that driver be? That's what a driverless car would be, sounds much safer than a new human driver to me!Is there a market for such a car? Do you want to buy a car that drives itself? Will any government actually ever license the sale of such vehicles? Who is going to allow a driverless car to be legally used on the road? Who is going to 'sign it off' as safe? And how can such vehicles pass any kind of 'safety test' without actually being first licensed for use on the public road?
Technology always fails in these circumstances, so who is going to authorize the use of a driverless car on the roads when it will inevitably fail and need upgrading before the 'teething problems' are sorted?
Dracoro said:
They need to run, safely, side by side normal road cars without the technology.
They already do.Dracoro said:
Personally, I'd like the idea of getting into the back of a car, going to sleep/watch TV/play games then half and hour later be at work. If I had to sit at the wheel, hand on steering wheel, foot hovering over brakes then I don't see the point. It's just be little more than laser guided cruise control with some limited steering input as well.
The google research cars have a single pedal, a brake, in the passenger seat, as well as the usual drive controls.It's not uncommon for the car to navigate several hundred miles without any intervention at all. The record (out of the 300K miles so far the cars have done) is about 1000 miles without any intervention. Still a work in progress, but it's probably better than you might have imagined. Out of the 300K miles, they've had zero crashes so far.
Dracoro said:
It won't happen for a LONG time though, too many external factors (other users, animals, pedestrians/cyclists, weather, inconsistent road surfaces etc.) that require some intelligence/thought from the driver to make certain decisions. Many of these things we think about are subtle but can make quite a difference, getting a robot "brain" (which is effectively what is required) to do all this is WAY off. The physical side of it is relatively simple enough.
That's precisely what Google have been teaching their cars to handle. You'd be amazed at how advanced they are.The same team has been winning DARPA races across open terrain in their autonomous 4x4s.
Here's a google 4x4 on the road in California this year: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFp6qwIEZkg
Here's where they were two years ago: http://youtu.be/bp9KBrH8H04
Google have about 20 engineers on this.
C
As I say, the physical side of this isn't too hard, nor is navigation etc.
I'd be interested to see this tech working down busy commuter B roads or country roads in the UK or doing rush hour through a major towns/cities.
I've no doubt the tech is impressive but most vids I've seen show it on open roads, motorways, spacious US roads etc. We'll not see it anytime soon tackling the Arc De Triomphe or a busy Hyde Park Corner etc.!
They need to be able to do that last "10%" that humans can do (and still often fail at), this is the hardest 10% (often emergency decisions, hazard perception out of the norm etc.) and the first 90% they appear to be achieving which is no surprise.
As I say, we are a LONG LONG way of buying a new car off the shelf in the UK where you just get in, tell it where to do and then sit back and let it do it without needing to have any "driver" controls. The nearest we'll get is something motorway based (i.e. when on motorway, it can take over) but that's about it for a long time.
I'd be interested to see this tech working down busy commuter B roads or country roads in the UK or doing rush hour through a major towns/cities.
I've no doubt the tech is impressive but most vids I've seen show it on open roads, motorways, spacious US roads etc. We'll not see it anytime soon tackling the Arc De Triomphe or a busy Hyde Park Corner etc.!
They need to be able to do that last "10%" that humans can do (and still often fail at), this is the hardest 10% (often emergency decisions, hazard perception out of the norm etc.) and the first 90% they appear to be achieving which is no surprise.
As I say, we are a LONG LONG way of buying a new car off the shelf in the UK where you just get in, tell it where to do and then sit back and let it do it without needing to have any "driver" controls. The nearest we'll get is something motorway based (i.e. when on motorway, it can take over) but that's about it for a long time.
Dracoro said:
I've no doubt the tech is impressive but most vids I've seen show it on open roads, motorways, spacious US roads etc. We'll not see it anytime soon tackling the Arc De Triomphe or a busy Hyde Park Corner etc.!
The second link I posted has footage of it driving through central San Francisco, including the radar images of everything it's taking in (including sidewalks and the people on them, as well as the topology of the road, traffic, signs, etc).
The car already safely navigates busy cities.
C
Impressive, I'm sure. Do you think it would cope on many trips round central Paris or Rome in rush hour?
I'll check the vid later, however driving in the US is quite easy in comparison due to the design of their roads. I'd like to see it working on all sorts of roads in London/Paris/Rome. Not to also mention single track lanes, going onto grass when two cars passing, up banks smudging against the hedges
I saw an article on the BBC news site today about a self-driving Lexus but the key/crucial thing was that it is designed to be used in conjunction WITH a human driver but can take over certain parts of the driving, not all.
As I say, it'll be a long time before there's a car that I can buy here in the UK, get in the back (or any seat for that matter) and tell it to take me to work whilst I watch TV/games/internet/sleep etc. In about 5 years, we will probably have self drivers for motorways (but still require a "driver").
I'll check the vid later, however driving in the US is quite easy in comparison due to the design of their roads. I'd like to see it working on all sorts of roads in London/Paris/Rome. Not to also mention single track lanes, going onto grass when two cars passing, up banks smudging against the hedges
I saw an article on the BBC news site today about a self-driving Lexus but the key/crucial thing was that it is designed to be used in conjunction WITH a human driver but can take over certain parts of the driving, not all.
As I say, it'll be a long time before there's a car that I can buy here in the UK, get in the back (or any seat for that matter) and tell it to take me to work whilst I watch TV/games/internet/sleep etc. In about 5 years, we will probably have self drivers for motorways (but still require a "driver").
Edited by Dracoro on Friday 4th January 15:59
MitchT said:
One of my colleagues has one of those Ford Focuses that parks itself, which got me thinking... What if there was a glitch and it struck another vehicle while parking itself? Can you imagine the battle you'd have getting the insurance to pay up when they find out you weren't actually in control of the vehicle at the time of the collision?
Huh? The driver of course. The self parking steers the car and the sensors display a message telling the driver which direction to go and when to stop. Even if the display is indicating that you should ram the car in front (because somehow it can't see it perhaps), and the driver says "ok" and proceeds to ram the car in front, how can it possibly be anyone other than the driver's fault?
It's a bit like people that drive into rivers because "the sat nav told me to", it's still 100% their fault!
Dracoro said:
Impressive, I'm sure. Do you think it would cope on many trips round central Paris or Rome in rush hour?
Yes, genuinely.Dracoro said:
I'll check the vid later, however driving in the US is quite easy in comparison due to the design of their roads. I'd like to see it working on all sorts of roads in London/Paris/Rome.
SF is very hilly, and not all on a block system. It's very busy, quite stop-start, with lots of bikes and pedestrians and people parking while you drive past. The system they've built handles all of that.Dracoro said:
Not to also mention single track lanes, going onto grass when two cars passing, up banks smudging against the hedges
You mean meeting a truck on a country lane like this:
Or driving at night and meeting a deer like this:
Or coping with a single-track road made out of hairpins (Lombard Street in San Francisco), like this?
Dracoro said:
I saw an article on the BBC news site today about a self-driving Lexus but the key/crucial thing was that it is designed to be used in conjunction WITH a human driver but can take over certain parts of the driving, not all.
As I say, it'll be a long time before there's a car that I can buy here in the UK, get in the back (or any seat for that matter) and tell it to take me to work whilst I watch TV/games/internet/sleep etc. In about 5 years, we will probably have self drivers for motorways (but still require a "driver").
These systems didn't come out of nowhere, the technology is very expensive and I doubt it will be in cars any time soon. That's a productionisation problem. It's money, not technology really. The terrain following laser scanner costs a fortune.As I say, it'll be a long time before there's a car that I can buy here in the UK, get in the back (or any seat for that matter) and tell it to take me to work whilst I watch TV/games/internet/sleep etc. In about 5 years, we will probably have self drivers for motorways (but still require a "driver").
Legislation is another - the US seems to be easier because in part it's simply a question of "how much money do you have to lobby with".
By the way, these things came about because of DARPA funding (the DARPA grand challenge, which completed in 2005, then the DARPA Urban challenge which was in 2007). They are better at off-road driving than most humans are. There's a tendency for people to think they are built to "follow the road" but they were actually built to "find a navigable track and use that" first -- that's why they don't have much of a problem with complex road systems that aren't on a grid system.
The car sees 360 degrees and is more aware of more hazards most of the time than a human could be.
C
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