Diesel Chipping/blue fin/ etc.. Long term issues ???
Discussion
Lots of companies are offering fairly cheap mods giving upto 30% increases in power/torque of most modern turbo diesels...they all insist with minimal risk to motors and almost (???) equal long term durability... have people who`ve had mods done found any long term detrimental issues ??? My current Focus has just reached 160 k; no problems at all..(not even a clutch ) feels good for 200k ???all things been equal do folk reckon this would have been case with one of mentioned mods ???
Any feedback and on other makes appreciated ...
Any feedback and on other makes appreciated ...
Shouldn't make much difference if a car has been well maintained / serviced throughout its' life, hence why the current mileage of a car shouldn't matter too much.
What it will do is accelerate wear on the parts which will now be under more stress. You might experience clutch failure (depending on how good the remap is, whether they have considered limiting the torque) and I've heard stories of turbo's failing after a car has been remapped. I often wonder though whether this is more down to the operator...
You say it's a Focus, I'm guessing the 115bhp TDCi 1.8? I think they remap up to approx. 145bhp with a chunk of torque too.
What it will do is accelerate wear on the parts which will now be under more stress. You might experience clutch failure (depending on how good the remap is, whether they have considered limiting the torque) and I've heard stories of turbo's failing after a car has been remapped. I often wonder though whether this is more down to the operator...
You say it's a Focus, I'm guessing the 115bhp TDCi 1.8? I think they remap up to approx. 145bhp with a chunk of torque too.
You dont get something for nothing.
If your worried, its really not for you.
It will put more stress on an engine, without doubt. The thing is how much and how long will the engine last? No one can answer that.
You will get people say a remap blew thier engine up, others are running around happily with 200k miles on, so who's right.
Heres some info from the Agel tuning site:
http://www.angeltuning.co.uk/faqs.aspx
If your worried, its really not for you.
It will put more stress on an engine, without doubt. The thing is how much and how long will the engine last? No one can answer that.
You will get people say a remap blew thier engine up, others are running around happily with 200k miles on, so who's right.
Heres some info from the Agel tuning site:
http://www.angeltuning.co.uk/faqs.aspx
Thanks for replies.
I have heard a couple of horror stories;both ,perhaps coincidently,on VW Golfs...so rather than relying on info from folk selling any of the various mods/reprogramming etc etc would ask if anyone on here had actually experienced problems...long term or otherwise...
It is afterall a great testament to modern engines/gearboxes/clutches if they will cope at all with 30% increases let alone do so after 100k+ miles...
Not asking for anyone to say " no you wont have problems" ...obviously the chances rise of having them...rather asking who has had problems;what were they and what on ???
I have heard a couple of horror stories;both ,perhaps coincidently,on VW Golfs...so rather than relying on info from folk selling any of the various mods/reprogramming etc etc would ask if anyone on here had actually experienced problems...long term or otherwise...
It is afterall a great testament to modern engines/gearboxes/clutches if they will cope at all with 30% increases let alone do so after 100k+ miles...
Not asking for anyone to say " no you wont have problems" ...obviously the chances rise of having them...rather asking who has had problems;what were they and what on ???
Floyd1957 said:
Thanks for replies.
I have heard a couple of horror stories;both ,perhaps coincidently,on VW Golfs...so rather than relying on info from folk selling any of the various mods/reprogramming etc etc would ask if anyone on here had actually experienced problems...long term or otherwise...
It is afterall a great testament to modern engines/gearboxes/clutches if they will cope at all with 30% increases let alone do so after 100k+ miles...
Not asking for anyone to say " no you wont have problems" ...obviously the chances rise of having them...rather asking who has had problems;what were they and what on ???
I had clutch slip after remapping my focus st, common problem and most upgraded to the rs clutch to overcome this. With the kind of remap i got (dreamscience) you could select what powe you remapped to, so i just turned it down to around 250bhp and did 20k without any other problems.I have heard a couple of horror stories;both ,perhaps coincidently,on VW Golfs...so rather than relying on info from folk selling any of the various mods/reprogramming etc etc would ask if anyone on here had actually experienced problems...long term or otherwise...
It is afterall a great testament to modern engines/gearboxes/clutches if they will cope at all with 30% increases let alone do so after 100k+ miles...
Not asking for anyone to say " no you wont have problems" ...obviously the chances rise of having them...rather asking who has had problems;what were they and what on ???
Im looking at (read 'dreaming') Mondeo TDCi 155,
I was talking to a chap at work (Ford indy) with years of experience, with regards to chipping. TDCI's like to eat injectors at higher miles and these will wear significantly quicker with a 30 -40% remap.
From what I've read so far the 155 bhp 2.2 Tdci can be safely mapped to up to ~190bhp before you will have problems with injectors, turbos and clutches (bearing in mind at this will be around 400 lb/ft of torque)
Scale that down to your own car and you cant go wrong? *
I was talking to a chap at work (Ford indy) with years of experience, with regards to chipping. TDCI's like to eat injectors at higher miles and these will wear significantly quicker with a 30 -40% remap.
From what I've read so far the 155 bhp 2.2 Tdci can be safely mapped to up to ~190bhp before you will have problems with injectors, turbos and clutches (bearing in mind at this will be around 400 lb/ft of torque)
Scale that down to your own car and you cant go wrong? *
- Excepts no responsibility if it goes wrong!
littlened said:
We had a 2008 Astra 1.9 cdti. Put a remap box on it. At 4 year old and 54k miles the gearbox bearing packed in.
I can't confirm if the extra,a power had anything to do with it, but I suspect it did.
Those gearboxes are renowned of being made from chocolate.I can't confirm if the extra,a power had anything to do with it, but I suspect it did.
Lots of them go on standard cars.
Imagine a racetrack, say a 400m athletics track. If you jogged around it you will likely make it to the end without any major effort. If you were asked to sprint around it then you will likely be gasping for breath.
You start asking a car to accelerate at an increased rate and before long it will start to complain. A car worked harder will wear quicker no matter how often its serviced.
Maybe the main mechanical components will be OK but bushes, joints, ancillaries, turbochargers, gaskets etc will all start to cause problems far sooner that they would have done if it were not 'chipped'
This built in tolerance that tuners have you buy in to certainly ain't 30%.
You start asking a car to accelerate at an increased rate and before long it will start to complain. A car worked harder will wear quicker no matter how often its serviced.
Maybe the main mechanical components will be OK but bushes, joints, ancillaries, turbochargers, gaskets etc will all start to cause problems far sooner that they would have done if it were not 'chipped'
This built in tolerance that tuners have you buy in to certainly ain't 30%.
Think Mr Wolf might have a point....thats why I haven`t done anything to our "work horse" car but might be a different issue with a car you are doing under 5k a year with ??? (My Focus has done approx 20k a year last 4 years)
Having said that there are quite a few MX5`s and Z3`s kicking about with superchargers bolted onto essentially standard bottom ends ???But are they good for 100k plus??
Wonder what over engineering is built into various engines/drive trains ???
Exhaust wrap sounds a good idea but could it increase temp of turbo ???Extra under bonnet venting might be a good idea ???
Having said that there are quite a few MX5`s and Z3`s kicking about with superchargers bolted onto essentially standard bottom ends ???But are they good for 100k plus??
Wonder what over engineering is built into various engines/drive trains ???
Exhaust wrap sounds a good idea but could it increase temp of turbo ???Extra under bonnet venting might be a good idea ???
I chipped my nearly new 2006 Seat Ibiza TDi2006 (from about 100 to 140bhp) and although I don't know if it had any long term issues, in the short term, the MPG went up and the whole car was better to drive (increased torque rather than speed). As Seat were selling the same car, with the same engine with more power (FR) I reckoned it could cope with it and the increase in BHP wasn't massive.
Before chipping, consider first the removal of the unnecessary catalytic converters and/or DPFs the car may have. Instant power gains with no stress on the engine components. If you do then decide to tune a milder upgrade will reap the same benefits.
If you are an eco-mentalist who doesn't believe this should be done then go boil your head...
If you are an eco-mentalist who doesn't believe this should be done then go boil your head...
My heads been boiling years....
I know its quite legal to remove cat from diesels and still pass MOT but dont think I totally agree for everyday road use; yes I know all arguments...China ,USA etc etc blah blah blah but I`ll keep mine on...besides dont think removing cat will give increases we are talking about...they dont make as much difference as folk think anyway. (Folk selling decat pipes will disagree)
http://www.longlife.co.uk/blog/index.php/2012/04/r...
I know its quite legal to remove cat from diesels and still pass MOT but dont think I totally agree for everyday road use; yes I know all arguments...China ,USA etc etc blah blah blah but I`ll keep mine on...besides dont think removing cat will give increases we are talking about...they dont make as much difference as folk think anyway. (Folk selling decat pipes will disagree)
http://www.longlife.co.uk/blog/index.php/2012/04/r...
Edited by Floyd1957 on Monday 14th January 22:42
It may not make a significant difference to the power of the car (it will make some) but removing the catalytic converter from my diesel has imrpoved throttle response (turbo spool) significantly, whilst making no impact on the noise the car makes. A decatted petrol engine sounds like a wasp with a megaphone, but it really has made no difference to mine. I'm considering swapping my centre section out for a straight-thru with no restrictive silencers on...
As a tuner with 10+ years in the mapping industry its great to read these threads. The question you must first answer is how much you plan on spending. If you are thinking £150-200 from a man in a van then dont bother. If you are thinking a 'tuning box' (glorified resistor circuit with fancy marketing) then carry a spare set of injectors in the boot just incase. If you are thinking £300+ with dyno testing and datalogging from a professional tuner then go for it, the professional will not stress any component past their reccomended settings and the extra drivability is fantastic.
These links may help:
http://www.sedox-performance.co.uk/knowledgeBase/e...
http://www.sedox-performance.co.uk/knowledgeBase/d...
These links may help:
http://www.sedox-performance.co.uk/knowledgeBase/e...
http://www.sedox-performance.co.uk/knowledgeBase/d...
Good info sedox....
but your point is more about quality of mods (you get what you pay for with most things in life) but intended topic was more about how various engines/drive trains are coping with mods;especially with regards to long term. There are folk driving about in cars with as much as 40% increases in torque; no matter what the quality of the mods that puts massive extra demands on clutch/box/diff.. As good as ford gearboxes are (think they make them for loads more cars than is readily publicised) I cant see they would build boxes with a 40% margin into them...Having said that I used to use ford escort MK 1/2 live axles in Zetec engined Westfields/MK`s...if poss the ones from vans with lower ratios. Original cars had perhaps 50Bhp/50Ft/lb;I ran a Westfield Se with a Zetec 2.0 150Bhp/140ft/lb in it for 4 years...The diff cried enough after 18k ??? Just stuck another in !!! I had mates putting Hayabusa engines to same diff and they still coped...for a while.. (And dont assume Hayabusa is down on torque;it might be at crank but by time its at diff it was well up (Primary reduction/lower ratio in box)
My point... I would still put 150 Bhp through a Mk1/2 escort diff (If I could find one;its still a good solution for 7 esque cars) but I know from experience a good one would be chewed up by 18k (if I was lucky)....
Read on this site other day how some chap couldnt see point in getting a 330D over a 320d...just remap a 320D..just as fast;more economical blah blah blah (PS didnt agree)... but no mention by anyone over durability/long term..
Hence questioning customers rather than suppliers ???
but your point is more about quality of mods (you get what you pay for with most things in life) but intended topic was more about how various engines/drive trains are coping with mods;especially with regards to long term. There are folk driving about in cars with as much as 40% increases in torque; no matter what the quality of the mods that puts massive extra demands on clutch/box/diff.. As good as ford gearboxes are (think they make them for loads more cars than is readily publicised) I cant see they would build boxes with a 40% margin into them...Having said that I used to use ford escort MK 1/2 live axles in Zetec engined Westfields/MK`s...if poss the ones from vans with lower ratios. Original cars had perhaps 50Bhp/50Ft/lb;I ran a Westfield Se with a Zetec 2.0 150Bhp/140ft/lb in it for 4 years...The diff cried enough after 18k ??? Just stuck another in !!! I had mates putting Hayabusa engines to same diff and they still coped...for a while.. (And dont assume Hayabusa is down on torque;it might be at crank but by time its at diff it was well up (Primary reduction/lower ratio in box)
My point... I would still put 150 Bhp through a Mk1/2 escort diff (If I could find one;its still a good solution for 7 esque cars) but I know from experience a good one would be chewed up by 18k (if I was lucky)....
Read on this site other day how some chap couldnt see point in getting a 330D over a 320d...just remap a 320D..just as fast;more economical blah blah blah (PS didnt agree)... but no mention by anyone over durability/long term..
Hence questioning customers rather than suppliers ???
Personally I think it varies from car to car. Some cars are running relatively low power in relation to the 'capabilities' of the engine / drivetrain. Others are in a greater state of tune.
There are many reasons for the power output of an engine when it leaves a factory. They are not all related to long term reliability.
Personally, I've no issue with remaps / tuning boxes, so long as you do the research about the specific car before you do it. There are far too many variations to make a sweeping statement about all cars.
There are many reasons for the power output of an engine when it leaves a factory. They are not all related to long term reliability.
Personally, I've no issue with remaps / tuning boxes, so long as you do the research about the specific car before you do it. There are far too many variations to make a sweeping statement about all cars.
Yes, it is very car/engine/drivetrain type specific but a good knowledgable tuner will have researched all of this on your behalf during their research and development of the product.
Fortunately we are part of a big international organisation and collectively we spend 100's of hours and tens of thousands of pounds on software development every month, you wont get this from a 'man in a van' or cheap as chips 'remapper' as they buy the calibration files for £20-30 from some anonymous file supplier over MSN messanger or copy and paste files from ebay discs.
Take a look at these 2 modern examples:
Vauxhall insignia 2.0 CDTi - 130bhp and 160bhp are 100% identical hardware wise. Both tune to 190bhp.
VAG 1.6 common rail diesel - 75bhp and 105bhp are 100% identical hardware wise and both tune easily to 135bhp.
Fortunately we are part of a big international organisation and collectively we spend 100's of hours and tens of thousands of pounds on software development every month, you wont get this from a 'man in a van' or cheap as chips 'remapper' as they buy the calibration files for £20-30 from some anonymous file supplier over MSN messanger or copy and paste files from ebay discs.
Take a look at these 2 modern examples:
Vauxhall insignia 2.0 CDTi - 130bhp and 160bhp are 100% identical hardware wise. Both tune to 190bhp.
VAG 1.6 common rail diesel - 75bhp and 105bhp are 100% identical hardware wise and both tune easily to 135bhp.
Sedox said:
Yes, it is very car/engine/drivetrain type specific but a good knowledgable tuner will have researched all of this on your behalf during their research and development of the product.
Fortunately we are part of a big international organisation and collectively we spend 100's of hours and tens of thousands of pounds on software development every month, you wont get this from a 'man in a van' or cheap as chips 'remapper' as they buy the calibration files for £20-30 from some anonymous file supplier over MSN messanger or copy and paste files from ebay discs.
Take a look at these 2 modern examples:
Vauxhall insignia 2.0 CDTi - 130bhp and 160bhp are 100% identical hardware wise. Both tune to 190bhp.
VAG 1.6 common rail diesel - 75bhp and 105bhp are 100% identical hardware wise and both tune easily to 135bhp.
Yes I get that and your examples (Insignia / VAG) highlight a big part of my point.Fortunately we are part of a big international organisation and collectively we spend 100's of hours and tens of thousands of pounds on software development every month, you wont get this from a 'man in a van' or cheap as chips 'remapper' as they buy the calibration files for £20-30 from some anonymous file supplier over MSN messanger or copy and paste files from ebay discs.
Take a look at these 2 modern examples:
Vauxhall insignia 2.0 CDTi - 130bhp and 160bhp are 100% identical hardware wise. Both tune to 190bhp.
VAG 1.6 common rail diesel - 75bhp and 105bhp are 100% identical hardware wise and both tune easily to 135bhp.
However, regarding research. Ultimately it is 'your' car and as such any owner should do a bit of prior research to check to see what they are potentially letting themselves in for.
As with everything on the internet, you can't take it all as gospel, but if you're finding regularly repeated problems then there's a fair chance you should be concerned about it.
I guess it also depends on how much you trust the tuner that you're using
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff