Is this the REAL reason motorists hate cyclists??

[shotgunfacelift]

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20130212-why-you-r...

So after reading this article, I thought I would open it up to PH.

Do you hate cyclists? Why?

[chrisw75]

I don't hate them, but they do drive me nuts at times.

Like the ones who rest on your car at the lights. Had one do that in London, so I tooted my horn and he purposely ran his watch across my bonnet leaving a deep score.

I love cycling, and would cycle everywhere when I was living overseas, but it's just too dangerous on the roads in the UK. They're too narrow, and it's far too easy to either collect a cyclist - especially on country roads - or have to drive into the kerb to stop from hitting an idiot who can't cycle in a straight line.

Worst is coming around the corner on a country lane to find them four-abreast and blocking the entire road. Then they get pissed at the sound of your brakes, followed by the sound of your horn as they still haven't moved out of the way several minutes later.

So road conditions and assholes piss me off, not polite cyclists.

[shotgunfacelift]

chrisw75 said:

I don't hate them, but they do drive me nuts at times.

Like the ones who rest on your car at the lights. Had one do that in London, so I tooted my horn and he purposely ran his watch across my bonnet leaving a deep score.

I love cycling, and would cycle everywhere when I was living overseas, but it's just too dangerous on the roads in the UK. They're too narrow, and it's far too easy to either collect a cyclist - especially on country roads - or have to drive into the kerb to stop from hitting an idiot who can't cycle in a straight line.

Worst is coming around the corner on a country lane to find them four-abreast and blocking the entire road. Then they get pissed at the sound of your brakes, followed by the sound of your horn as they still haven't moved out of the way several minutes later.

So road conditions and assholes piss me off, not polite cyclists.

This is pretty much my view, obviously you have obnoxious motorists as well as obnoxious cyclists. Those Tour de France in training types piss me off, as they are usually like you say 4 abreast on a fast B road.

Anyone know why they do this? Do they think it creates a more favourable situation on fast b roads for them?

I don't normally mind cyclists, I just prefer if they only use cycle lanes

[Vocal Minority]

chrisw75 said:

So road conditions and assholes piss me off, not polite cyclists.

At least we have come to the answer we always come to early on this time

[Antony Moxey]

chrisw75 said:

Worst is coming around the corner on a country lane to find them four-abreast and blocking the entire road. Then they get pissed at the sound of your brakes, followed by the sound of your horn as they still haven't moved out of the way several minutes .

If you can't get past four 'blocking' the road, you can't get past one either. And why should they move out the way, is your journey more important than theirs? I trust you move out the way too at the first opportunity when someone quicker comes up behind you when you're blocking the entire road for them.

[98elise]

Its simple.....abide by the same laws as the rest of us, and I'll stop hating you.

Part of my commute is a walk, and you take your life in our own hands crossing roads. You have to assume a cyclist won't stop for you at a red light.....and expect a mouth full off abuse if you step out.

[Slow]

When you meet 1 head on on single track lanes just stop in the middle.
Sick of them expecting you to move off the road and stop so they can keep going.

Make those fkers slow down or stop as well imo.

[funkyrobot]

98elise said:

Its simple.....abide by the same laws as the rest of us, and I'll stop hating you.

Part of my commute is a walk, and you take your life in our own hands crossing roads. You have to assume a cyclist won't stop for you at a red light.....and expect a mouth full off abuse if you step out.

I've been back on the bike recently to get my weight and blood pressure down (ironic ). I ride on my own (not in a huge road block group), stop at red lights, give way at junctions when I'm supposed to, have lots of lights and reflective clothing on when riding in the dark, signal when I'm turning and thank motorists who wait for me at junctions etc.

In the past few weeks I have had the following, none of which have been caused by anything but me being on the road:

1. VW Transporter overtaking me when approaching a small island in the middle of the road. He got half way past me then had to cut in. I saw this coming so backed off ready. Idiot.
2. Honda Civic past me so close that I could touch the car with the palm of my hand. Nothing coming the over way and an empty residential road. He was in such a rush that he turned off the road at the next junction and went into a COOP car park.
3. Nice big foreign lorry overtook me and decided to pull back across before his trailer had past. I applied the breaks as I was forced near the kerb. Thankfully, his trailer had past before it completely closed the gap. Nice near miss there.
4. Last night whilst waiting at a junction there was a driver behind getting impatient (a car infront of me was a bit hesitant in moving off). Mr impatient thought it would be good to sit there and rev the hell out of the engine whilst lurching towards my back wheel. Really struggle to understand that one.
5. Last night and another impatient motorist. Because some people have tunnel vision when driving, they don't look at what is happening ahead of them. A car and I turned into the top of a road and we had to wait for a car coming the other way (due to parked vehicles). As we waited, a car further back started to turn into the road and couldn't, so blocked the main road. Cue lots of honking of horns etc. The person in a small Pug behind me literally leaned on his horn and started creeping towards my back wheel. After the road cleared, he pulled over, and went into a shop. Must have been in a real rush.
6. Also last night, E46 BMW went around a right turn too fast (as I was on the corner) and drifted to the left of the road, completely cutting me up. I saw this coming though so had slowed down to give him room.

Add to the above the multiple vehicles with no lights on and last night, lots of cars with snow all over the windows.

Yes, we have idiot cyclist and idiot drivers. However, I'm seeing a lot more driving idiocy when on the roads at the moment.

Apart from the above though, I am seeing some nice, polite motorists. I have been waited for at junctions, I've had people give me lots of room when overtaking and I've noticed some people check their mirror before swinging their car door open. There are some nice car drivers out there, such a shame that some of them are utter morons.

Edited to add:

7. Plonker in a Mondeo who cut infront of me as we approached a roundabout. Caused me to lock up the back brake and nearly crash into his boot. I wonder who he would have blamed if this had happened?

Also, I can't stand militant, aggressive cyclists. Gives us genuine people a bad name.

Edited by funkyrobot on Thursday 14th February 07:55

[Magic919]

Can't see the article in the UK.

[funkyrobot]

Slow said:

When you meet 1 head on on single track lanes just stop in the middle.
Sick of them expecting you to move off the road and stop so they can keep going.

Make those fkers slow down or stop as well imo.

If this happens, I'll move over to the side of the road as far as I can. I will also stop if required.

However, one thing that does pee me off are drivers of vehicles like X5's and even some Range Rovers. I have had incidences of meeting vehicles like this on the back roads where the driver does not want to give you any room. Despite the fact that they are 4x4's, I've had some drivers of these vehicles try to shove me off the road, even though there was room to get past.

[funkyrobot]

chrisw75 said:

I don't hate them, but they do drive me nuts at times.

Like the ones who rest on your car at the lights. Had one do that in London, so I tooted my horn and he purposely ran his watch across my bonnet leaving a deep score.

I love cycling, and would cycle everywhere when I was living overseas, but it's just too dangerous on the roads in the UK. They're too narrow, and it's far too easy to either collect a cyclist - especially on country roads - or have to drive into the kerb to stop from hitting an idiot who can't cycle in a straight line.

Worst is coming around the corner on a country lane to find them four-abreast and blocking the entire road. Then they get pissed at the sound of your brakes, followed by the sound of your horn as they still haven't moved out of the way several minutes later.

So road conditions and assholes piss me off, not polite cyclists.

I never rest of people's cars, wouldn't dream of it. Whilst cycling, I see other cyclists who pee me off too. Last night I was following someone in the dark and snow who had no lights on. I also hate kerb hoppers. These are the cyclists who ride along the pavement and then just drop off onto the road as you are approaching them.

Just to add to this though, I'm seeing a lot of idiot pedestrians whilst out on the bike too. Numerous times over the last few weeks I've had them step out into the road without looking and walking across junctions without checking over their shoulder.

[JMGS4]

The article makes a very relevant point. Car drivers are considered the milch-cows of the nation, are harried day and night by ridiculous laws and overbearing knobjobs on parking and driving generally. Cyclists are totally ignored unless they get sideswiped. Obviously its too hard for the jobsworths to persue them for their constant ignoring of all traffic laws. Thus ensues an imbalance in application of the law and just annoyance which can (but shouldn't) then get out of hand.
The worst of all cyclists are those who in winter have no lights, wear dark clothes and then weave between cars and the pavement at will. I hope it never happens but I might not see one one of these days... a great fear getting older and all that...
IMHO all cyclist should have to wear a helmet and a high-vis as well as having functioning lights back and front and reflectors sideways AND pay a yearly insurance (covered with a sticker stuck to the frame of the bike), thus identifying the owner and insurance company. This is done with excellent effect e.g. in Switzerland.

I have no gripes whatsoever against the few traffic-law abiding cyclists that exist and hope they never have any near misses like the ones mentioned above.

Edited by JMGS4 on Thursday 14th February 08:01

[Pablo68]

People are often inconsiderate morons regardless of their form of transport

[funkyrobot]

Article below for those in the UK who aren't going through a proxy server:

---

It’s not simply because they are annoying, argues Tom Stafford, it’s because they trigger a deep-seated rage within us by breaking the moral order of the road.

Something about cyclists seems to provoke fury in other road users. If you doubt this, try a search for the word "cyclist" on Twitter. As I write this one of the latest tweets is this: "Had enough of cyclists today! Just wanna ram them with my car." This kind of sentiment would get people locked up if directed against an ethic minority or religion, but it seems to be fair game, in many people's minds, when directed against cyclists. Why all the rage?

I've got a theory, of course. It's not because cyclists are annoying. It isn't even because we have a selective memory for that one stand-out annoying cyclist over the hundreds of boring, non-annoying ones (although that probably is a factor). No, my theory is that motorists hate cyclists because they think they offend the moral order.

Driving is a very moral activity – there are rules of the road, both legal and informal, and there are good and bad drivers. The whole intricate dance of the rush-hour junction only works because people know the rules and by-and-large follow them: keeping in lane; indicating properly; first her turn, now mine, now yours. Then along come cyclists, innocently following what they see are the rules of the road, but doing things that drivers aren't allowed to: overtaking queues of cars, moving at well below the speed limit or undertaking on the inside.

You could argue that driving is like so much of social life, it’s a game of coordination where we have to rely on each other to do the right thing. And like all games, there's an incentive to cheat. If everyone else is taking their turn, you can jump the queue. If everyone else is paying their taxes you can dodge them, and you'll still get all the benefits of roads and police.

In economics and evolution this is known as the "free rider problem"; if you create a common benefit – like taxes or orderly roads – what's to stop some people reaping the benefit without paying their dues? The free rider problem creates a paradox for those who study evolution, because in a world of selfish genes it appears to make cooperation unlikely. Even if a bunch of selfish individuals (or genes) recognise the benefit of coming together to co-operate with each other, once the collective good has been created it is rational, in a sense, for everyone to start trying to freeload off the collective. This makes any cooperation prone to collapse. In small societies you can rely on cooperating with your friends, or kin, but as a society grows the problem of free-riding looms larger and larger.

Social collapse

Humans seem to have evolved one way of enforcing order onto potentially chaotic social arrangements. This is known as "altruistic punishment", a term used by Ernst Fehr and Simon Gachter in a landmark paper published in 2002. An altruistic punishment is a punishment that costs you as an individual, but doesn't bring any direct benefit. As an example, imagine I'm at a football match and I see someone climb in without buying a ticket. I could sit and enjoy the game (at no cost to myself), or I could try to find security to have the guy thrown out (at the cost of missing some of the game). That would be altruistic punishment.

Altruistic punishment, Fehr and Gachter reasoned, might just be the spark that makes groups of unrelated strangers co-operate. To test this they created a co-operation game played by constantly shifting groups of volunteers, who never meet – they played the game from a computer in a private booth. The volunteers played for real money, which they knew they would take away at the end of the experiment. On each round of the game each player received 20 credits, and could choose to contribute up to this amount to a group project. After everyone had chipped in (or not), everybody (regardless of investment) got 40% of the collective pot.

Under the rules of the game, the best collective outcome would be if everyone put in all their credits, and then each player would get back more than they put in. But the best outcome for each individual was to free ride – to keep their original 20 credits, and also get the 40% of what everybody else put in. Of course, if everybody did this then that would be 40% of nothing.

In this scenario what happened looked like a textbook case of the kind of social collapse the free rider problem warns of. On each successive turn of the game, the average amount contributed by players went down and down. Everybody realised that they could get the benefit of the collective pot without the cost of contributing. Even those who started out contributing a large proportion of their credits soon found out that not everybody else was doing the same. And once you see this it's easy to stop chipping in yourself – nobody wants to be the sucker.

Rage against the machine

A simple addition to the rules reversed this collapse of co-operation, and that was the introduction of altruistic punishment. Fehr and Gachter allowed players to fine other players credits, at a cost to themselves. This is true altruistic punishment because the groups change after each round, and the players are anonymous. There may have been no direct benefit to fining other players, but players fined often and they fined hard – and, as you'd expect, they chose to fine other players who hadn't chipped in on that round. The effect on cooperation was electric. With altruistic punishment, the average amount each player contributed rose and rose, instead of declining. The fine system allowed cooperation between groups of strangers who wouldn't meet again, overcoming the challenge of the free rider problem.

How does this relate to why motorists hate cyclists? The key is in a detail from that classic 2002 paper. Did the players in this game sit there calmly calculating the odds, running game theory scenarios in their heads and reasoning about cost/benefit ratios? No, that wasn't the immediate reason people fined players. They dished out fines because they were mad as hell. Fehr and Gachter, like the good behavioural experimenters they are, made sure to measure exactly how mad that was, by asking players to rate their anger on a scale of one to seven in reaction to various scenarios. When players were confronted with a free-rider, almost everyone put themselves at the upper end of the anger scale. Fehr and Gachter describe these emotions as a “proximate mechanism”. This means that evolution has built into the human mind a hatred of free-riders and cheaters, which activates anger when we confront people acting like this – and it is this anger which prompts altruistic punishment. In this way, the emotion is evolution's way of getting us to overcome our short-term self-interest and encourage collective social life.

So now we can see why there is an evolutionary pressure pushing motorists towards hatred of cyclists. Deep within the human psyche, fostered there because it helps us co-ordinate with strangers and so build the global society that is a hallmark of our species, is an anger at people who break the rules, who take the benefits without contributing to the cost. And cyclists trigger this anger when they use the roads but don't follow the same rules as cars.

Now, cyclists reading this might think "but the rules aren't made for us – we're more vulnerable, discriminated against, we shouldn't have to follow the rules." Perhaps true, but irrelevant when other road-users perceive you as breaking rules they have to keep. Maybe the solution is to educate drivers that cyclists are playing an important role in a wider game of reducing traffic and pollution. Or maybe we should just all take it out on a more important class of free-riders, the tax-dodgers.

13/02 UPDATE: We've changed a sentence in the third paragraph that readers said implied all cyclists break rules. This was not the intended implication of the original line, and we thank the readers who pointed this out.

[g3org3y]

chrisw75 said:

Like the ones who rest on your car at the lights. Had one do that in London, so I tooted my horn and he purposely ran his watch across my bonnet leaving a deep score.

That's outrageous! What did you do?

[anonymous-user]

Antony Moxey said:

If you can't get past four 'blocking' the road, you can't get past one either. .

Absolute tosh, spouted by bicyclists to defend their arrogant, selfish blocking tactic.

[Christian85]

Antony Moxey said:

If you can't get past four 'blocking' the road, you can't get past one either. And why should they move out the way, is your journey more important than theirs? I trust you move out the way too at the first opportunity when someone quicker comes up behind you when you're blocking the entire road for them.

Disagree completely. You sound like a London cyclist.

[shotgunfacelift]

Antony Moxey said:

chrisw75 said:

Worst is coming around the corner on a country lane to find them four-abreast and blocking the entire road. Then they get pissed at the sound of your brakes, followed by the sound of your horn as they still haven't moved out of the way several minutes .

If you can't get past four 'blocking' the road, you can't get past one either. And why should they move out the way, is your journey more important than theirs? I trust you move out the way too at the first opportunity when someone quicker comes up behind you when you're blocking the entire road for them.

I don't understand how passing 4 abreast is likened to passing one?

I presume you're suggesting that if you passed one cyclist, by going into the opposing lane you would give him sufficient space between your car and him?
That buffer space would not be available if you are in the opposite lane over taking 4, as the outside rider would be closer to your car, thus loosing any buffer space you may have been able to give single lane riders?

And although I know this wasn't aimed at me, I am very quick to pull in a few feet and move to let a passing motorbike if it's safe to do so.

[shotgunfacelift]

Also thanks for fixing that funkyrobot
I hadn't realised

[singlecoil]

funkyrobot said:

Some very interesting stuff

Makes a LOT of sense