Is adjusting a setting on a car really a 'modification'?
Discussion
ok this is borne out of curiosity more than anything. But is altering a "setting" on a car really a modification?
For instance the most obvious is re-mapping.... whatever the definition of it maybe.
But lets think about what remapping is and does.
So...
What is remapping?
Well on a modern ECU controlled car there are a host of variables and settings, remapping simply adjusts some of these settings.
But lets take this a stage further, if you have a 'Sport' button on an 'M' button in your car. Then there's a very good chance pushing it will result in some of these settings changing too. So is pushing the said button a modification?
If no, then how is changing the same settings by other means then a modification? Surely a rose by any other name would smell as sweet, kind of thing.....
And lets take it another stage further. Cars are full of settings, be it windows up or windows down, adjustable suspension and of course adjustable things like camber and toe in. Some even have adjustable diffs, along with things like a progressive throttle adjuster (i.e. a throttle pedal
). But the base results is a 'setting' on the car is being changed not modified.
So based on these conclusions, I'm unclear how changing any existing setting on a car can be deemed a true modification and not just an adjustment.
What does remapping actually do?
Well there are a lot of settings and it will vary from vehicle to vehicle. But lets roll back the clock a bit shall we.
If you adjust the ignition timing and fettle with the mixture dials on something like an MGB you will be able to make it run better and make more power. Essentially remapping is doing the same sort of thing, only electronically and more accurately. But is there a fundamental difference in what they are doing or achieving?
Yet how many people would consider a "tune up" to a classic car to be a modification?
Turbo boost I hear you say...
Well ok, but again is this not just an adjustment on the car too? Pre-ecu turbo cars can adjust the boost by means of a screw on the turbo. Would adjusting this be deemed a modification or simply altering a setting such as using 4wd or 2wd?
It's the same sort of story with diesels, pre ECU ones will have some kind of mechanical injector pump, which will normally have several "adjustment" screws to alter the fuelling (in a not hugely dissimilar principle to jets on a carburetter).
To conclude if it's not a modification to mechanically alter the fuelling on a petrol car, should it be deemed a modification the electronically alter the fuelling on a diesel one?
For instance the most obvious is re-mapping.... whatever the definition of it maybe.
But lets think about what remapping is and does.
So...
What is remapping?
Well on a modern ECU controlled car there are a host of variables and settings, remapping simply adjusts some of these settings.
But lets take this a stage further, if you have a 'Sport' button on an 'M' button in your car. Then there's a very good chance pushing it will result in some of these settings changing too. So is pushing the said button a modification?
If no, then how is changing the same settings by other means then a modification? Surely a rose by any other name would smell as sweet, kind of thing.....
And lets take it another stage further. Cars are full of settings, be it windows up or windows down, adjustable suspension and of course adjustable things like camber and toe in. Some even have adjustable diffs, along with things like a progressive throttle adjuster (i.e. a throttle pedal
). But the base results is a 'setting' on the car is being changed not modified.So based on these conclusions, I'm unclear how changing any existing setting on a car can be deemed a true modification and not just an adjustment.
What does remapping actually do?
Well there are a lot of settings and it will vary from vehicle to vehicle. But lets roll back the clock a bit shall we.
If you adjust the ignition timing and fettle with the mixture dials on something like an MGB you will be able to make it run better and make more power. Essentially remapping is doing the same sort of thing, only electronically and more accurately. But is there a fundamental difference in what they are doing or achieving?
Yet how many people would consider a "tune up" to a classic car to be a modification?
Turbo boost I hear you say...
Well ok, but again is this not just an adjustment on the car too? Pre-ecu turbo cars can adjust the boost by means of a screw on the turbo. Would adjusting this be deemed a modification or simply altering a setting such as using 4wd or 2wd?
It's the same sort of story with diesels, pre ECU ones will have some kind of mechanical injector pump, which will normally have several "adjustment" screws to alter the fuelling (in a not hugely dissimilar principle to jets on a carburetter).
To conclude if it's not a modification to mechanically alter the fuelling on a petrol car, should it be deemed a modification the electronically alter the fuelling on a diesel one?
Re-Mapping is a modification.
you are introducing new software that was not originally there. May only be a setting but it's a setting that was not there when the car insurance "rating" was set.
Pushing an "M" button is adjusting a setting that was already there. When manufacturers quote performance figures they include the "best" of the settings that are available on the vehicle when it leaves the fcatory.
All imho of course.
Ex77
you are introducing new software that was not originally there. May only be a setting but it's a setting that was not there when the car insurance "rating" was set.
Pushing an "M" button is adjusting a setting that was already there. When manufacturers quote performance figures they include the "best" of the settings that are available on the vehicle when it leaves the fcatory.
All imho of course.
Ex77
Yes, there is clearly a difference between adjusting carburettors, ignition timing or valve clearances on an older car and altering the map in a modern ECU.
-Firstly, before ECUs making those adjustments on a car was part of a routine service reigeme to keep it running correctly to original spec. Changing jets, carburettors etc would be considered a modification. Modern cars don't need such adjustments so the only motivation for doing so would be to increase power output or driving characteristics from the original.
-The turn of a screw is not obvious. A re-map is, in that anyone with the requisite equipment could tell within minutes if the ECU has been re-mapped.
-Firstly, before ECUs making those adjustments on a car was part of a routine service reigeme to keep it running correctly to original spec. Changing jets, carburettors etc would be considered a modification. Modern cars don't need such adjustments so the only motivation for doing so would be to increase power output or driving characteristics from the original.
-The turn of a screw is not obvious. A re-map is, in that anyone with the requisite equipment could tell within minutes if the ECU has been re-mapped.
Just staying with the engine for now, chassis is however similar.
The OEM has to homologate the engine before any sale can take place. This involves masses of certification for all parameters of the engine.
From then onwards all engines produced for sale have to be tested and certified within 5% of the original homoligation.
Does that help?
The OEM has to homologate the engine before any sale can take place. This involves masses of certification for all parameters of the engine.
From then onwards all engines produced for sale have to be tested and certified within 5% of the original homoligation.
Does that help?
Exige77 said:
Re-Mapping is a modification.
you are introducing new software that was not originally there.
It's not new software. Think of it like loading up a word doc and changing an 'x' to a 'y' and saving. This doesn't install a new version of MS Word on your PC.you are introducing new software that was not originally there.
Exige77 said:
May only be a setting but it's a setting that was not there when the car insurance "rating" was set.
But it was, the only thing that has changed is the value.Exige77 said:
Pushing an "M" button is adjusting a setting that was already there. When manufacturers quote performance figures they include the "best" of the settings that are available on the vehicle when it leaves the fcatory.
Is there any legal requirement for car makers to claim any performance figures? Also many modern cars (GT-R and Ferrari's) have 'hidden' launch control modes and other such things.Bear Phils said:
It changes how the car drives. Therefore, it is a modification. At least, that's how I suspect the insurance companies see it.
But so can a tune up on a non ECU petrol car. From the factory they'll normally run rich and for 95 RON fuel. There's no reason why you can't 'optimise' the settings to make the car run better and faster on 99 RON fuel by manipulating the 'settings' on the car.Remapping a non turbo petrol car such as a modern 1.6 Fiesta would be doing pretty much the same thing. So how can the same thing be treated differently?
A car leaves the factory with 300bhp. It has been designed to cope with that 300bhp - suspension, brakes, tyres etc.
You remap it, and give it 400bhp. You have done that by modifying the engine management, and the car is no longer to original spec.
It's as simple as that, and you can see why insurers see it as an increased risk.
You remap it, and give it 400bhp. You have done that by modifying the engine management, and the car is no longer to original spec.
It's as simple as that, and you can see why insurers see it as an increased risk.
I would have thought this obvious, but anyway: insurers are in the game of risk.
The car comes out of the factory with a sport button. The car is a known quantity, even if you drive around with it switched off all the time. The insurers assess the car on its potential, and they come up with a risk level.
You remap it and add some number of horses. You have compromised the insurer's assessment, because they could not have known what potential you would bring the car to.
The car comes out of the factory with a sport button. The car is a known quantity, even if you drive around with it switched off all the time. The insurers assess the car on its potential, and they come up with a risk level.
You remap it and add some number of horses. You have compromised the insurer's assessment, because they could not have known what potential you would bring the car to.
Nemo Sum said:
You car leaves the factory set up with configuration X. You then change/alter/modify that to become configuration Y. Remapping is a modification.
ok, but if a car leaves the factory with the windows up, ie configuration 'x', then lowering them alters that configuration via an adjustable setting on the car.Fundamentally the action is the same - a setting adjustment.
300bhp/ton said:
But so can a tune up on a non ECU petrol car. From the factory they'll normally run rich and for 95 RON fuel. There's no reason why you can't 'optimise' the settings to make the car run better and faster on 99 RON fuel by manipulating the 'settings' on the car.
Remapping a non turbo petrol car such as a modern 1.6 Fiesta would be doing pretty much the same thing. So how can the same thing be treated differently?
Your talking apples and pears - not a valid debate.Remapping a non turbo petrol car such as a modern 1.6 Fiesta would be doing pretty much the same thing. So how can the same thing be treated differently?
300bhp/ton said:
ok, but if a car leaves the factory with the windows up, ie configuration 'x', then lowering them alters that configuration via an adjustable setting on the car.
Fundamentally the action is the same - a setting adjustment.
If you genuinely believe that then you're as much of an idiot as I think you are.Fundamentally the action is the same - a setting adjustment.
DaveEssex said:
300bhp/ton said:
But so can a tune up on a non ECU petrol car. From the factory they'll normally run rich and for 95 RON fuel. There's no reason why you can't 'optimise' the settings to make the car run better and faster on 99 RON fuel by manipulating the 'settings' on the car.
Remapping a non turbo petrol car such as a modern 1.6 Fiesta would be doing pretty much the same thing. So how can the same thing be treated differently?
Your talking apples and pears - not a valid debate.Remapping a non turbo petrol car such as a modern 1.6 Fiesta would be doing pretty much the same thing. So how can the same thing be treated differently?
If you want an analogy:
You sit down and write a letter to a friend and send it via the Royal Mail to them
You sit down a write a letter to a friend on a computer and send it via email to them
The action and results are the same (you wrote a letter and sent it). Only the method in how you did it was different.
300bhp/ton said:
Why and how?? Can you explain please. Because in each case the same setting is being adjusted to get to the same result. It's only the method of adjustment that is different. So how is apples to pears??
You were talking about remapping etc of a modern car.MGB's etc engines were subject to a different regime, which was relevant at the time of their original launch.
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