Future of the Internal combustion engine

[Bear Phils]

Another of Koenigsegg's videos talking about the development of an engine without camshafts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bch5B23_pu0&lis...

Very interesting stuff, no more timing belt failures either

What are everyone's thoughts on this?

Edited by Bear Phils on Tuesday 19th February 21:54

[The Black Flash]

Very interesting, and great potential if they get it to work as well as they say. First VTEC, then multi-air type setups, then finally remove the camshaft all together.
Assuming it works, the question will be, will they be able to licence it such that it becomes widespread, will other manufacturers just copy them, or will they charge so much to use it that nobody bothers.

[clarkey540i]

I always thought solenoid operated valves would be the next big step to be honest, it would be fairly simple to integrate them into the ECU and you could do all sorts of clever things with them, like late intake valve opening and so on.
I also like rotary valve systems, like Bishop (which was almost in F1 cars but was banned) and Coates. The fact that these systems don't use poppet valves allow extremely high compression ratios, but this impacts emissions.
Another good one is 6 stroke engines where, on alternate strokes, water is injected into the cylinder. It turns to steam and expands, creating a power stroke. The cooling effect of the water would also theoretically render the cooling system obsolete, reducing weight and making the manufacturing process of the engine simpler and thus cheaper.

[Zad]

Water injection is already used occasionally in 4-stroke engines - I think it was standard fit in old Saab 99 turbos? It lowers the combustion temperature (and hence lower NOx), moderates the burn and helps prevent detonation. The problem is carrying around lots of water, or running a condensing / scavenge system. It ends up costing too much and complicating already tight installations.

[Halmyre]

Bear Phils said:

Another of Koenigsegg's videos talking about the development of an engine without camshafts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bch5B23_pu0&lis...

Very interesting stuff, no more timing belt failures either

What are everyone's thoughts on this?

Edited by Bear Phils on Tuesday 19th February 21:54

Can't access the link at the moment, but hasn't F1(© Ecclestone Enterprises) been using this for a while? Unless it's banned technology.

[clarkey540i]

Zad said:

Water injection is already used occasionally in 4-stroke engines - I think it was standard fit in old Saab 99 turbos? It lowers the combustion temperature (and hence lower NOx), moderates the burn and helps prevent detonation. The problem is carrying around lots of water, or running a condensing / scavenge system. It ends up costing too much and complicating already tight installations.

That seems to me to be a slightly different method, where water is injected along with the fuel. The Crower six stroke injects water separately (I would imagine through a separate injector) to create a power stroke. It's a very good way of using the waste heat of the engine.

[Mr2Mike]

Bear Phils said:

Very interesting stuff, no more timing belt failures either

Really interesting video, thanks. One thing that's in the back of my mind is that it would only take an ECU glitch to turn your engine is a pile of scrap I suppose the same could be said for DSG boxes though.

[CraigyMc]

Halmyre said:

Bear Phils said:

Another of Koenigsegg's videos talking about the development of an engine without camshafts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bch5B23_pu0&lis...

Very interesting stuff, no more timing belt failures either

What are everyone's thoughts on this?

Edited by Bear Phils on Tuesday 19th February 21:54

Can't access the link at the moment, but hasn't F1(© Ecclestone Enterprises) been using this for a while? Unless it's banned technology.

No.
F1 has done away with mechanical valve springs though, using an air return system instead. That's probably what you're thinking of.

F1 engines still have camshafts to open the valves.
Since technical reg 5.9.3 states that variable valve timing systems are banned, there's no point in attempting to develop anything fancy in this area (until that came into place, Renault [at least Renault] were developing electromagnetic valve actuation systems).

2013 F1 tech regs are here if you want to read them:
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/7EE7D5392...

ETA: The 1.6 litre 90deg V6 turbo formula has a revlimit of 15,000rpm.
I wonder if the engine builders have binned pneumatic valves in favour of a return to valve springs for it, on grounds of weight, complexity and packaging - or if they are sticking with it on the grounds that they might have a little more control over an engine parameter. Hrmm...

C

Edited by CraigyMc on Wednesday 20th February 08:27

[zcacogp]

Very interesting, thanks for the link. I'm a little surprised they are driving the valves with compressed air rather than electronic actuation, but I guess they have their reasons. They also spoke of a digital addressing to each valve, whereby it is 'open' or 'closed', which would mean you wouldn't be able to further tune it by opening the valve more slowly, or part-opening it, although these may not actually be useful things to be able to do.

He also said that the valve was closed by a spring. Surely this is the ideal way of creating a desmodromic system, with controlled (and forced) valve closing?

clarkey540i said:

That seems to me to be a slightly different method, where water is injected along with the fuel. The Crower six stroke injects water separately (I would imagine through a separate injector) to create a power stroke. It's a very good way of using the waste heat of the engine.

Now that is an interesting idea. Does any such an engine exist?


Oli.

[Captain Muppet]

zcacogp said:

Very interesting, thanks for the link. I'm a little surprised they are driving the valves with compressed air rather than electronic actuation, but I guess they have their reasons. They also spoke of a digital addressing to each valve, whereby it is 'open' or 'closed', which would mean you wouldn't be able to further tune it by opening the valve more slowly, or part-opening it, although these may not actually be useful things to be able to do.

Part opening a valve is very useful if you want to keep flow velocities up at low revs/low loads. Hence VVL on all those production cars.

[CraigyMc]

Captain Muppet said:

zcacogp said:

Very interesting, thanks for the link. I'm a little surprised they are driving the valves with compressed air rather than electronic actuation, but I guess they have their reasons. They also spoke of a digital addressing to each valve, whereby it is 'open' or 'closed', which would mean you wouldn't be able to further tune it by opening the valve more slowly, or part-opening it, although these may not actually be useful things to be able to do.

Part opening a valve is very useful if you want to keep flow velocities up at low revs/low loads. Hence VVL on all those production cars.

I'm sure they'd do it, but such systems are banned in F1.

[Mr2Mike]

zcacogp said:

Very interesting, thanks for the link. I'm a little surprised they are driving the valves with compressed air rather than electronic actuation, but I guess they have their reasons.

Electromagnetic actuation is being developed (e.g. Valeo E-Valve), but the power requirements have been very high in previous experimental systems. The Valeo system relies on a pair of valve springs to reduce the forces required, but the it looks far more bulky than this one.

zcacogp said:

They also spoke of a digital addressing to each valve, whereby it is 'open' or 'closed', which would mean you wouldn't be able to further tune it by opening the valve more slowly, or part-opening it, although these may not actually be useful things to be able to do.

It could be useful, but it would increase complexity and cost by orders of magnitude.

zcacogp said:

He also said that the valve was closed by a spring. Surely this is the ideal way of creating a desmodromic system, with controlled (and forced) valve closing?
Oli.

A spring provides a fail safe state in the event of loss of air pressure I suppose.

[clarkey540i]

zcacogp said:

clarkey540i said:

That seems to me to be a slightly different method, where water is injected along with the fuel. The Crower six stroke injects water separately (I would imagine through a separate injector) to create a power stroke. It's a very good way of using the waste heat of the engine.

Now that is an interesting idea. Does any such an engine exist?


Oli.

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20060227/free/302270007
This is a relatively basic article, but should give you a better idea of the concept.

[anonymous-user]

The problem with all these alternative valve actuating systems is that the cost / reward isn't actually that good! Conventional varriable position / lift systems are now simple(ish) robust, cheap to make and develop and offer something like 85% of the advantages of the fully varriable individual valve control being offered with these new systems.

With a fully controllable system you are talking about being able to smooth the torque curve a bit (no higher peak power, as the systems are not actually as "powerful" as conventional cam drive so you can't even get the valve open as quickly), improve engine out emissions and lower fuel consumption (estimated to be in the order of 10% approximately).

However, the IC engine looses approx 40% of it's fuel energy directly to heat, so if you spent a similar amount of effort on a wasteheat recovery / conversion you could make massive gains in efficiency! This is almost certainly what the next "big thing" in IC engine tech will be (turbocompounding, overexpansion, peltier heat-electricity devices etc, even steam systems!)

[rev-erend]

I seem to remember lotus and perhaps Lambo having tried these systems a good few years ago.

[callmedave]

This is very interesting, and it almost seems obvious to have an infinitely adjustable valve train, I see only positives from this, It should be cheaper, lighter, more efficient, more powerful, etc, He mentions about capturing pressurized air from the engine under braking in order to offer a Kers style boost. I dont quite understand how that works.

Am i being over enthusiastic about this and just being lead on by the big bald guy? or does anyone else think this is a great leap in automotive technology?

[zcacogp]

clarkey540i said:

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20060227/free/3022...
This is a relatively basic article, but should give you a better idea of the concept.

That was very interesting. Thank you.


Oli.

[anonymous-user]

callmedave said:

It should be cheaper, lighter, more efficient, more powerful, etc,

You're going to have to clarify and expand on those points a bit for me. Personnaly, i can't see any of the advantages, except for being more efficient across the engine rpm range, and only approx 10% more than a conventional phasor / Variable lift system?

[Asterix]

Bear Phils said:

Another of Koenigsegg's videos talking about the development of an engine without camshafts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bch5B23_pu0&lis...

Very interesting stuff, no more timing belt failures either

What are everyone's thoughts on this?

Edited by Bear Phils on Tuesday 19th February 21:54

Interesting - thanks for posting.

They might create great technology put the can't mount pictures square

[Robmarriott]

Their reason for pneumatic actuation over other methods are to do with the other things they intend to use the air for.

In the Evo mag article there's a small box out describing the system. It uses air compressed by the cylinders during engine braking, stored in a tank and used to actuate the valves (I imagine there is a compressor too) and the intention is that this air can also be used to inject into the engine along with more fuel for a 'boost' effect, or... If used with no fuel, the engine can be powered solely on conpressed air and travel for 2km with 0 fuel consumption.