Traders breaking the law or is it just me?

[405dogvan]

Spotted this ad earlier this evening

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2002-HONDA-CR-V-I-VTEC-S...

From the description I noted this bit

"THIS IS A TRADE IN VEHICLE WITH NO WARRANTY"

No indication that it's a trade sale but to my mind a private seller taking in a part-ex just to resell it is no longer a private seller anyway - where does that line get drawn?

Private sales are sales of your OWN vehicles - NOT vehicles you've bought with the intention of reselling, at that point you're a trader and consumer law applies to you (as well as tax law and all the other things you're required to do)

I'm not especially picking-on that ad because there are quite a few similar ones - feedback history is always similar, a lot of junk but cars keep cropping-up at a rate somewhat higher than most people would buy and sell a car - e.g. I'm smelling a dealer dumping cars as 'private sales' which is illegal - ho?

or am I over-reacting?

If for no other reason that if it IS a dealer dumping stock, you can safely assume there's quite a bit wrong with it (tho in this case it could just by the 202L miles!!)

[Isonbusa]

The seller as half a dozen other cars listed for sale, takes debit & credit cards, dealer selling through a non buisiness private account, naughty.

[jimbob82]

since 2008 (when everything went tits up) all the private "dealers" have crawled out of the woodwork. people who either have a job and sell cars "on the side" or people who do nothing, get benefits and sell cars from home.

You are right aswell, many unscrupulous trader's with proper forecourts do rid the runts of their litters in this way and it is illegal in that case.

If your a trader your a trader and are bound by the laws of this land...though I still here many horrors stories of vehicles bought on finance from dealers and having terrible problems with not only the car itself but the dealer aswell...some people have no morals and let someone drive a car away that they know is gonna be a lemon...

[405dogvan]

I just noticed one of his cars is pictured outside a local MOT centre - one which usually has a range of cars for sale 'nearby' (actually outside some lockups and not in the spacious yard of the MOT centre itself which I always thought was a bit odd).

May just be a coincidence but taking pics of a car outside the MOT station is a bit odd unless it's YOUR MOT station?

That also brings-in the likelihood that the cars have either been MOT failures or - worse - that someone is just saying that to get cheap cars...

Anyway - someone asked me about that car and I think my reply includes barge-poles...

p.s. 2 of his cars for sale are in the MOT centre and the CRV is in the background of one of the shots - so it's clearly them selling the cars.

They're not explicitly saying they're traders - which I think is out-of-order but I've no idea if it's illegal. In the event you had a problem with one of the cars (being unroadworthy or whatever), it's their reaction at that point which would be the issue perhaps?

Edited by 405dogvan on Monday 18th March 14:38

[Roo]

405dogvan said:

"THIS IS A TRADE IN VEHICLE WITH NO WARRANTY"

Nothing wrong with that.

Used cars don't have to be sold with a warranty.

[Amateurish]

Roo said:

Nothing wrong with that.

Used cars don't have to be sold with a warranty.

+1 No requirement for a warranty.

Of course, the sale will still be subject to SOGA so the car must be of reasonable quality, fit for purpose etc.

[405dogvan]

Amateurish said:

+1 No requirement for a warranty.

Of course, the sale will still be subject to SOGA so the car must be of reasonable quality, fit for purpose etc.

Except that there's no mention that they're traders in any of their listings (that I could see) - which is definately against eBay policy and opens the question of why they would withhold that information from a buyer?

You have to assume they're going to try to say it's a private sale - but it's clearly not (private sales must be your own properly - not many people own 5+ cars for sale at any one given time do they?)

[Big Fat Fatty]

Roo said:

405dogvan said:

"THIS IS A TRADE IN VEHICLE WITH NO WARRANTY"

Nothing wrong with that.

Used cars don't have to be sold with a warranty.

You've slightly missed the point, the car was taken as a trade in by the seller purely with the intention of selling it on again, the car's not his but it's being advertised as a private sale.

[405dogvan]

Roo said:

Nothing wrong with that.

Used cars don't have to be sold with a warranty.

You're right but a lot of people don't know the difference between 'warranty' and 'consumer rights' - and indeed that includes some traders I think

If you want to sell a car with no comeback whatsoever, your only option is the 'trade sale' - restricting purchases to businesses only means consumer law does not apply and the whole thing becomes 'buyer beware' - but that's the polar opposite of this.

[V8mate]

Isonbusa said:

The seller as half a dozen other cars listed for sale, takes debit & credit cards, dealer selling through a non buisiness private account, naughty.

But the car posted by the OP is the only one with the 'trade-in' caveat. All the others are worded 'normally'.

[405dogvan]

p.s. I don't want to make this into a witchhunt of that one seller - I'm really curious as to how the law views this tho.

I know that if you sell anything 'bought for resale' you must register with HMRC or face a fairly hefty fine (e.g. you must be a business of some sort)

I know that consumer law applies to all goods sold by a business selling to private individuals but I'm not sure how far that goes in terms of someone identifying themselves as a business or what sanctions exist where a business 'pretends not to be a business' (nor am I sure if this fits that description completely)

I know that eBay require trade sellers to be registered as such and that should include business details which I can't find for that seller (the fact they're selling a lot of parts and then odd household things and bits of clothing STRONGLY suggests they're mixing business and private selling on one account which is a no-no)

End of the day, someone asked me about that car and I couldn't actually be sure how legit it was - right now I see a 1-owner high-miler almost certainly being sold by an MOT centre (implying a significant failure of some sort at some point??) which doesn't make me say "nice car" much??

[405dogvan]

V8mate said:

But the car posted by the OP is the only one with the 'trade-in' caveat. All the others are worded 'normally'.

But none mention that he's a trader do they (I've not read them all but the ones I looked at are not clearly cars being sold by a trader/dealer/business??) - and none mention that they DO include a warranty either

It looks, to me, like someone is using their "home" eBay account rather than a proper one for their business (unless leather boots and sweaters are MOT failures now?)

I just don't actually know if it's illegal - it's certainly against eBay policy and it smells dodgy tho

Edited by 405dogvan on Monday 18th March 15:01

Edited by 405dogvan on Monday 18th March 15:01

[anonymous-user]

Must say, regardless of legality I avoid any advert which uses those words. As we all know, it basically means the car is knackered, and they know it.

[scottp3000]

I'd second the above post about shunting on knackered cars - won a dirt cheap car on ebay with a pretty much identical ad from a local trader (wanted a cheap winter run around).
Phoned to arrange collection and got the message that after trying to jump start it, the engine seized solid - had been sat in their lock up for months apparently. Close call, but learnt my lesson now.

Fair enough buying a cheapy the dealer can't shift on at private prices, but I think some of the dealers are seeing it as a way of shifting stters with no comeback...

[jamoor]

Lordy lord, we are look at a TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND mile 11 Year old CR-V.

If I bought that for £1000, I would be delighted if it

a) Got me home from newcastle to Yorkshire.
b) Got me to work and back the next day. (40 miles)

Seriously, what are you expecting a "trader" to do for you for that price and mileage? What do you expect the guy to do with the car exactly? He's not doing the same with his other vehicles.

[anonymous-user]

jamoor said:

Seriously, what are you expecting a "trader" to do for you for that price and mileage?

Just to be honest. If the car has problems, they should be disclosed. The language used is their way of avoiding any accountability when they know fine well the car is a shed.

[jamoor]

Sten J said:

Just to be honest. If the car has problems, they should be disclosed. The language used is their way of avoiding any accountability when they know fine well the car is a shed.

Why not just go and look at it and see for yourself what problems there are?

[405dogvan]

Just to be clear about this - I'm not suggesting every car should have a detailed showroom and engineers report - I'm just asking whether what appears to be a dealer attempting to pass themselves off as a private seller is illegal or just immoral (and against eBay's rules of course).

It's not just the possibility of mechanical disaster we're looking at here - buying from a dealer protects you against the car being a write-off (assuming you ask about that), having outstanding finance or being stolen/cloned or whatever.

Buying privately you get NO protection from those things.

If there wasn't a big difference, traders wouldn't try this on, would they?

and I don't care how good your car-problem-spotting skills are, if any of those are true and the HPI isn't updated about them, you're screwed!

[jimbob82]

405dogvan said:

...buying from a dealer protects you against the car being a write-off (assuming you ask about that)...

you don't have to ask, THEY HAVE TO DISCLOSE IT.

[405dogvan]

jimbob82 said:

you don't have to ask, THEY HAVE TO DISCLOSE IT.

Not really wanting to have to cover the fking obvious again but there are many hard-of-thinking types here so

ONLY IF THEY KNOW IT and you have to be able to PROVE they knew which is even harder IF YOU DON'T ASK.