Merc 320CE vs Jag XJ8 - which waft barge?
Discussion
I have the need for a wafty barge, something that I like the appearance of, something that feels a bit different, nice to cruise on the motorway, not too bad off it, a pleasant interior and nice to look at (in my opinion). That's why I'm thinking of going for either a Merc 320CE or Jag XJ8 (probably a 4.0). I know there are various issues with the V8 engine, most of which can be avoided if the right model or mods have been done. I'll probably have up to £3k purchase budget which should get a good example of both I hope.
So which would you go for out of the above and why?
So which would you go for out of the above and why?
Loved my 300ce-24v, 90's gangsta spec 2 tone grey with amg wheels and proline springs. Such a solid, refined, comfortable, reliable car that liked a drink and could get a shift on @ 80+. I'd take a decent ce over the jag. Check head gasket, rot, electrics and sportmode on gearbox. I can see good uns going up in value. Infact i fancy another for summer!
Ps plenty of ce shaped dogs @ £3k - be careful! Should get a mint jag for that (id still go ce mind)
Ps plenty of ce shaped dogs @ £3k - be careful! Should get a mint jag for that (id still go ce mind)
Edited by exgtt on Sunday 24th March 10:23
I'm on my second XJ8. The first took me from 60k to over 100k and the current one is on 38k.
£3000 should buy you a good example, but the best low mileage cars are priced at more than that. Engines were revised to deal with a number of problems for the 2000 model year and the revised versions can be identified by a VIN number ending in five, not six digits.
Pre 2000 cars had fragile waterpumps, secondary timing chain tensioners, weak throttle bodies and Nicasil coating on the bores.
Nicasil coatings suffered from errosion due to a combination of high Sulphur fuel and short trips. Sulphur maximum limits were lowered in Jan 2000 so any Nicasil coated V8 engine that's still OK now should be fine. Several engines were changed under warranty so you may well find a early car with a steel lined engine fitted - identify this by the presence of a green tag on the head at the back of the RH bank.
Waterpumps ought to be upgraded for the later version with a metal not plastic impellor. Identify the later type by the presence of a black plastic, not metal gasket.
Early throttle bodies should have all been changed under a factory recall.
The only remaining engine issue is the secondary timing chain tensioners. These were revised to a mk 2 version at the same time as the rest of the engine revisions but the mk 2 type still had plastic components which can crack or break up leading to slipped or broken chains. The only way to erradicate the problem is to retro fit the later mk3 version with a steel body from the 4.2 incarnation of the V8 engine.
The only way to be sure what's fitted is to remove the RH cam cover - the LH is a PITA to get off and have a look. A cream or orange tensioner body is bad news, a metal one is good.
Other concerns are the sealed for life gearbox. Loads have failed now - just look on ebay. Ideally the oil should be changed at 50k then 25k intervalls, it's not a simple drain and refill as the final level is tricky to get correct. Rear axles also benefit from an oil change.
Look for corrosion on the rear wheel arches, round the front and rear screens bottom of the front wings and most importantly behind the front shocks. There's a reinforcing plate here where the engine subframe is bolted to the chassis rail and some cars have corroded badly here. It's an MOT fail too and a big welding job. Body and paintwork is otherwise pretty good however some darker coloured cars suffer from peeling lacquer.
XJ's are hard on suspension and brakes, listen and feel very carefully for any clonking or knocking when you're out and make sure the car comes to a straight judder free stop under braking. Feel all the tyres for uneven wear too, any suspension wear or bush failure will cause tyres to feather oddly. XJs are very sensitive to wheel and tyre imbalances too, typically you'll feel a steering wobble between 50-70MPH and possibly vibration through the seat if there are any tyre problems or buckled wheels. Don't expect too much in the way of the ledgendary Jaguar ride quality either - it's good on touring (black shocks) suspension and 16" wheels but sport suspension (green shocks) combined with larger diameter wheels gives a hard crashy ride on poor roads.
Any car that hesitates or engages drive with a jerk or thump has a potential gerbox failure looming, changes should be seamless and quiet and you should be able to play tunes with the throttle, Sport swich and J gate selector. Any gearbox worries then just walk away.
Generally the 1998-2002 XJ8 is a well made sound car and capable of big mileages if maintained well. It's mostly easy enough to DIY too and parts are reasonable and in good supply.
Expect around 26/8 MPG on the motorway, 22/4 round town and mid teens if you nail it everywhere. Tyres are around £100/125 a corner in 16" diameter size. The 3.2 is quick enough (0-60 is 8s) the 4.0 is much rarer and does the same in 7.0.
£3000 should buy you a good example, but the best low mileage cars are priced at more than that. Engines were revised to deal with a number of problems for the 2000 model year and the revised versions can be identified by a VIN number ending in five, not six digits.
Pre 2000 cars had fragile waterpumps, secondary timing chain tensioners, weak throttle bodies and Nicasil coating on the bores.
Nicasil coatings suffered from errosion due to a combination of high Sulphur fuel and short trips. Sulphur maximum limits were lowered in Jan 2000 so any Nicasil coated V8 engine that's still OK now should be fine. Several engines were changed under warranty so you may well find a early car with a steel lined engine fitted - identify this by the presence of a green tag on the head at the back of the RH bank.
Waterpumps ought to be upgraded for the later version with a metal not plastic impellor. Identify the later type by the presence of a black plastic, not metal gasket.
Early throttle bodies should have all been changed under a factory recall.
The only remaining engine issue is the secondary timing chain tensioners. These were revised to a mk 2 version at the same time as the rest of the engine revisions but the mk 2 type still had plastic components which can crack or break up leading to slipped or broken chains. The only way to erradicate the problem is to retro fit the later mk3 version with a steel body from the 4.2 incarnation of the V8 engine.
The only way to be sure what's fitted is to remove the RH cam cover - the LH is a PITA to get off and have a look. A cream or orange tensioner body is bad news, a metal one is good.
Other concerns are the sealed for life gearbox. Loads have failed now - just look on ebay. Ideally the oil should be changed at 50k then 25k intervalls, it's not a simple drain and refill as the final level is tricky to get correct. Rear axles also benefit from an oil change.
Look for corrosion on the rear wheel arches, round the front and rear screens bottom of the front wings and most importantly behind the front shocks. There's a reinforcing plate here where the engine subframe is bolted to the chassis rail and some cars have corroded badly here. It's an MOT fail too and a big welding job. Body and paintwork is otherwise pretty good however some darker coloured cars suffer from peeling lacquer.
XJ's are hard on suspension and brakes, listen and feel very carefully for any clonking or knocking when you're out and make sure the car comes to a straight judder free stop under braking. Feel all the tyres for uneven wear too, any suspension wear or bush failure will cause tyres to feather oddly. XJs are very sensitive to wheel and tyre imbalances too, typically you'll feel a steering wobble between 50-70MPH and possibly vibration through the seat if there are any tyre problems or buckled wheels. Don't expect too much in the way of the ledgendary Jaguar ride quality either - it's good on touring (black shocks) suspension and 16" wheels but sport suspension (green shocks) combined with larger diameter wheels gives a hard crashy ride on poor roads.
Any car that hesitates or engages drive with a jerk or thump has a potential gerbox failure looming, changes should be seamless and quiet and you should be able to play tunes with the throttle, Sport swich and J gate selector. Any gearbox worries then just walk away.
Generally the 1998-2002 XJ8 is a well made sound car and capable of big mileages if maintained well. It's mostly easy enough to DIY too and parts are reasonable and in good supply.
Expect around 26/8 MPG on the motorway, 22/4 round town and mid teens if you nail it everywhere. Tyres are around £100/125 a corner in 16" diameter size. The 3.2 is quick enough (0-60 is 8s) the 4.0 is much rarer and does the same in 7.0.
I've sort of owned both cars (my CE was a 230 though..) the Jaguar is in a different league in terms of waft. While the engine clearly plays a part in that in the majestic ride that settles it. I don't think anything this side of an old school steel sprung Rolls or Bentley offers so much ridde comfort or refinement. As Steve said you do need to keep on top of those suspension bushes though.
Mine proved 100% reliable and trouble free in the 2 years I owned it too (although nothing went wrong with the Merc either).
Mine proved 100% reliable and trouble free in the 2 years I owned it too (although nothing went wrong with the Merc either).
Go for it. Got a '98 3.2 for 1.5k last July from a forecourt in Clevedon, nr Brissle. 97k on the clock, but has had a new steel-lined engine some time in the past. Wished I'd researched it a lot more, with the nicasil issues think I could've got the price down. be worth going for something that one of the PHers may be willing to part with (probably get it with everything done -tensioners, gearbox flush, etc). Also, would've liked something bigger engine-wise, it's not slow, but the take-off is addictive even at 3.2l!
Having said all of that, wow!!!!, me and the kids (12 and 14 year old girls) love the thing. Quick, smooth and a complete joy to be in (passenger or driver). Mine needs a new alternator (which is being fitted this week), whilst the gearbox and tensioners being done at TL Jag week after. Not cheap, all this stuff, but well worth having. Rather this than a 3yr lump of boring Kraut metal. I will only be doing 5k a year in it, so not too bothered by the mpg (3mpg at lights!) . Insurance was about £300 fully comp on a Direct Line multi car policy (even with my 2 claims in me van in 3 years).
My first XJ8 had sports suspension on 17" wheels with 50 profile tyres and, the current one has touring suspension with 16" wheels with 60 profile tyres.
The sports suspension version (on the right) has a lower ride height too obvious here:
You gain a considerable improvement in ride quality - and cheaper tyres - by fitting 16" wheels which is what I did on the first XJ8 soon after I bought it.
I ran both cars side by side with identical wheels and tyres for a few weeks and found that tyre pressures had as much if not more influence on ride quality as the difference in suspension rates so I'd not worry too much about which version you choose. There are a few cars fitted with CATS, which have electronicaly variable damping rates but I've never driven one so have no idea how well the system works. Sports suspension cars also have a thicker front anti roll bar and one on the rear too, which makes initial turn in feel a little sharper.
I'd suggest the overall big picture is it's more important is to buy the very best example you can find rather than concerning yourself too much about which suspension it's fitted with. If you buy a car with bigger diameter wheels it's easy enough to source 16" wheels for an XJ on ebay as everybody wants to go larger, and doing that and playing about with tyre pressures will soften a sport suspension car quite a lot.
The sports suspension version (on the right) has a lower ride height too obvious here:
You gain a considerable improvement in ride quality - and cheaper tyres - by fitting 16" wheels which is what I did on the first XJ8 soon after I bought it.
I ran both cars side by side with identical wheels and tyres for a few weeks and found that tyre pressures had as much if not more influence on ride quality as the difference in suspension rates so I'd not worry too much about which version you choose. There are a few cars fitted with CATS, which have electronicaly variable damping rates but I've never driven one so have no idea how well the system works. Sports suspension cars also have a thicker front anti roll bar and one on the rear too, which makes initial turn in feel a little sharper.
I'd suggest the overall big picture is it's more important is to buy the very best example you can find rather than concerning yourself too much about which suspension it's fitted with. If you buy a car with bigger diameter wheels it's easy enough to source 16" wheels for an XJ on ebay as everybody wants to go larger, and doing that and playing about with tyre pressures will soften a sport suspension car quite a lot.
Jaguar steve said:
Playing about with tyre pressures will soften a sport suspension car quite a lot.
Not sure why you would want to soften the sport suspension? My dad had the sport suspension and both of us thought the ride was excellent, although as you mention it was probably improved significantly by having the smaller wheels.Loads of W124 info on here.
I would go for an earlier 300CE as a good one should cause very little grief. The later 320's have wiring looms and 5spd autoboxes to watch out for- both expensive to fix (I would be wanting receipts for at least 1 of the 2).
Same story with the Jag- I would want an earlier 6.
I would go for an earlier 300CE as a good one should cause very little grief. The later 320's have wiring looms and 5spd autoboxes to watch out for- both expensive to fix (I would be wanting receipts for at least 1 of the 2).
Same story with the Jag- I would want an earlier 6.
Lynch91 said:
Jaguar steve said:
Playing about with tyre pressures will soften a sport suspension car quite a lot.
Not sure why you would want to soften the sport suspension? My dad had the sport suspension and both of us thought the ride was excellent, although as you mention it was probably improved significantly by having the smaller wheels.Although the X308 is not shockingly bad like some cars from the era, it's ride is not as good as either the 1980/90 XJs or any of the several daily driver Renaults I've owned or indeed the hired Citroens I've hammered round Europe. All of these cars have had a softer, more compliant ride quality and been more comfortable and pleasant to drive over broken and pot holed roads.
Really depends what you want from a car I suppose - I'm old and fat enough to choose comfort over ultimate handling everytime.
I have a little experience.
Had an Xj6 4.2 and now own a 320 clk. She would never have let me chop in her astra for a jag but I got away with the clk.
This is a toughy. Both have plentiful performance and waftability.
Think the jag would be more modern. Nah.... the ce has those wonderful individual rear seats, pillarless coupe styling, increasing resale value.
If you really need the rear seats go for the jag. Toss a coin. A supercharged jag would finalise it. A 300ce 24v sportline spec if not.
Had an Xj6 4.2 and now own a 320 clk. She would never have let me chop in her astra for a jag but I got away with the clk.
This is a toughy. Both have plentiful performance and waftability.
Think the jag would be more modern. Nah.... the ce has those wonderful individual rear seats, pillarless coupe styling, increasing resale value.
If you really need the rear seats go for the jag. Toss a coin. A supercharged jag would finalise it. A 300ce 24v sportline spec if not.
The Crack Fox said:
Better to buy a good example of a slightly older model (X308), than a bad example of a later model (X350), for your 3k, if you get my drift.
You seem to be implying there is a consensus that an early X350 is a bad car? That certainly isnt my experience. I would be confident you could buy a good x350 for 3000 ish.Its a much better car in most ways than the x308, and far more modern looking.
I'd have another in the morning.
Edited by daemon on Tuesday 26th March 08:42
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