M25 fatal lorry/car accident J30 Tues

[robinessex]

Again, lorries crashing cause fatalities by squashing cars. How many others have seen lorries tailgating? The cause of many lorry accidents I suspect.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-2201106...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-2201106...

[martin mrt]

I can't see any mention of tailgating there or is this speculation on your part?

Sad to see life lost however

[mercfunder]

In any accident between a truck and car the car is always going to come off worse due to the weights involved, however unless you were an eye witness what you have posted is pure speculation.
Good luck trolling.

[rumple]

Come on guys, its always the lorrys fault, didn't you know that?

[Buff Mchugelarge]

PH meme no.32b (sub section C) ;

'Cars don't kill people, lorrys do. '

[greygoose]

robinessex said:

Again, lorries crashing cause fatalities by squashing cars. How many others have seen lorries tailgating? The cause of many lorry accidents I suspect.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-2201106...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-2201106...

How many others have seen cars pull right in front of lorries without thinking about the braking distance a lorry needs?

[clonmult]

rumple said:

Come on guys, its always the lorrys fault, didn't you know that?

Not something to laugh about when people have died through the stupidity of others, and the drivers have apparently been arrested on suspicion of causing death by dangerous driving

I've rarely seen lorries keeping anything like a sensible gap on the motoroway, although the same is also said of 97% of road users.

[robinessex]

mercfunder said:

In any accident between a truck and car the car is always going to come off worse due to the weights involved, however unless you were an eye witness what you have posted is pure speculation.
Good luck trolling.

See website links for witness quote

http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/10327431.Picture...One_dead_in_M25_eight_vehicle_pile_up_road_re_opens_after_nine_hour_closure/?ref=rss

[heebeegeetee]

It is all but impossible to maintain a clear gap to the vehicle in front in an hgv. If there is a gap, a car will fill it - always. if there is a nice hgv sized gap in front then every passing hgv will occupy it because overtaking hgvs do the upmost to limit their time in L2 even if the majority of car drivers think the opposite.

I saw the pictures of that shunt yesterday and saw that it happened at a junction. From experience of driving hgvs I can state that at every single junction on a busy m'way cars will peel off and dive in front of an hgv and brake to take the off slip, indeed often will already be braking as they cut the hgv up. They will take all of the space in front leaving no braking space for either themselves or the hgv. This will happen even if there are no vehicles behind the hgv allowing the cars all the room they want in safety if they chose to to take it.

When the hgv then passes the on-slip cars will do everything they can to take up the piece of tarmac already occupied by the hgv. Sometimes every single junction can be a battle. When I was doing a regular run on the m'ways around Brum here I took to always moving to L2 as I approached a junction to maintain my safety (and that of others) and my speed.

The reality of the daily life of driving an hgv is that you will spend almost every hour being carved up, cut up and pushed around by car drivers. That is the reality. And when it goes wrong, know-nothings will be on the forums blaming the lorry drivers on no evidence whatsoever - sorry - being charged with a crime is evidence and conviction. Last week when that toddler was sadly killed after a gust of wind blew him and his buggy into a van, the van driver was also charged with a crime (but not the mother). So that'll be the van driver charged as guilty also then.

Incidentally - one of the oft bandied about stats on hgvs is that they form something like 10% of the traffic but are involved in 20% of the accidents or something like that. The pictures yesterday showing the tailbacks caused by this accident yesterday - stap me, the numbers of hgvs on the road! 10%? 80% more like, and I also knew that at night time the numbers of hgvs will be almost the same but there will be no cars. I need to try and find those pics and save them for the next time someone tries to tell me that hgvs form a very small part of m'way traffic.

[joewilliams]

heebeegeetee said:

Incidentally - one of the oft bandied about stats on hgvs is that they form something like 10% of the traffic but are involved in 20% of the accidents or something like that.

Is that 10% of the total vehicles, or 10% of the total mileage driven?

[k-ink]

Everytime I drive through the 50mph average speed camera zone on the M25, a lorry is right up my rear bumper. They think they have a right to sail on at 60mph. If you get in the way (by driving legally) they intimidate you by leaving a mere 1 foot of space. Happens every time. No wonder they have a terrible reputation!

[heebeegeetee]

joewilliams said:

Is that 10% of the total vehicles, or 10% of the total mileage driven?

I seem to recall it was as a percentage of m'way traffic and i remember questioning it at the time but had no figures to drawer on - but even when i was a trucker myself i was often staggered at the numbers of trucks on the road - especially at night, when i started doing night work just before the credit crunch.

[mercfunder]

robinessex said:

mercfunder said:

In any accident between a truck and car the car is always going to come off worse due to the weights involved, however unless you were an eye witness what you have posted is pure speculation.
Good luck trolling.

See website links for witness quote

http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/10327431.Picture...One_dead_in_M25_eight_vehicle_pile_up_road_re_opens_after_nine_hour_closure/?ref=rss

"Mr Hugwell, who lives in South Ockendon, had been travelling on the anti-clockwise stretch of the motorway when he saw the aftermath of the crash.

He said: “It looked as though one lorry had gone into the other, then one had crushed the Renault against the wall."

Hardly an eye witness account, he is commenting on the aftermath and even he says "it looks like", not "I saw".

[minipower]

Horrible crash. I had a glimpse of the aftermath and all I could see was a truck upright but leaning with a lot of damage on the offside and then a car on a low loader which had been squeezed as if it had been in a crusher. Rear and front had entered the cockpit. Hope those in hospital pull through.

[Brite spark]

k-ink said:

Everytime I drive through the 50mph average speed camera zone on the M25, a lorry is right up my rear bumper. They think they have a right to sail on at 60mph. If you get in the way (by driving legally) they intimidate you by leaving a mere 1 foot of space. Happens every time. No wonder they have a terrible reputation!

They're limited to 56 in most cases, so average speed cameras can be driven through at full speed or close too it.

[Dark85]

clonmult said:

Not something to laugh about when people have died through the stupidity of others, and the drivers have apparently been arrested on suspicion of causing death by dangerous driving

I've rarely seen lorries keeping anything like a sensible gap on the motoroway, although the same is also said of 97% of road users.

Quite an important word there.

[clonmult]

k-ink said:

Everytime I drive through the 50mph average speed camera zone on the M25, a lorry is right up my rear bumper. They think they have a right to sail on at 60mph. If you get in the way (by driving legally) they intimidate you by leaving a mere 1 foot of space. Happens every time. No wonder they have a terrible reputation!

But as heebeegeetee said, car drivers are just as bad when it comes to leaving next to no space, and they're just as likely to fill a gap between two lorries as they are two cars.

So its entirely possible that the incident could have been partially due to bad driving on the part of the car drivers - not just the lorries.

[Finlandia]

Brite spark said:

k-ink said:

Everytime I drive through the 50mph average speed camera zone on the M25, a lorry is right up my rear bumper. They think they have a right to sail on at 60mph. If you get in the way (by driving legally) they intimidate you by leaving a mere 1 foot of space. Happens every time. No wonder they have a terrible reputation!

They're limited to 56 in most cases, so average speed cameras can be driven through at full speed or close too it.

Also the speedo on a lorry is more accurate than on a car. My lorry is limited to 90kph and the speedo is exactly at 90 when the limiter kicks in, at that point my car speedo shows around 100kph.

[BliarOut]

heebeegeetee said:

It is all but impossible to maintain a clear gap to the vehicle in front in an hgv. If there is a gap, a car will fill it - always. if there is a nice hgv sized gap in front then every passing hgv will occupy it because overtaking hgvs do the upmost to limit their time in L2 even if the majority of car drivers think the opposite.

I saw the pictures of that shunt yesterday and saw that it happened at a junction. From experience of driving hgvs I can state that at every single junction on a busy m'way cars will peel off and dive in front of an hgv and brake to take the off slip, indeed often will already be braking as they cut the hgv up. They will take all of the space in front leaving no braking space for either themselves or the hgv. This will happen even if there are no vehicles behind the hgv allowing the cars all the room they want in safety if they chose to to take it.

When the hgv then passes the on-slip cars will do everything they can to take up the piece of tarmac already occupied by the hgv. Sometimes every single junction can be a battle. When I was doing a regular run on the m'ways around Brum here I took to always moving to L2 as I approached a junction to maintain my safety (and that of others) and my speed.

The reality of the daily life of driving an hgv is that you will spend almost every hour being carved up, cut up and pushed around by car drivers. That is the reality. And when it goes wrong, know-nothings will be on the forums blaming the lorry drivers on no evidence whatsoever - sorry - being charged with a crime is evidence and conviction. Last week when that toddler was sadly killed after a gust of wind blew him and his buggy into a van, the van driver was also charged with a crime (but not the mother). So that'll be the van driver charged as guilty also then.

Incidentally - one of the oft bandied about stats on hgvs is that they form something like 10% of the traffic but are involved in 20% of the accidents or something like that. The pictures yesterday showing the tailbacks caused by this accident yesterday - stap me, the numbers of hgvs on the road! 10%? 80% more like, and I also knew that at night time the numbers of hgvs will be almost the same but there will be no cars. I need to try and find those pics and save them for the next time someone tries to tell me that hgvs form a very small part of m'way traffic.

Having seen what happens to a car in an HGV sandwich I'll do whatever I can to never position myself between two of them. Physics makes a hell of a mess

[10 Pence Short]

There is good and bad driving from drivers of all types of vehicle on the motorways.

When it goes wrong, accidents involving HGVs have an obvious potential to be more serious, as physics dictates 40 tonnes can do more damage at any given speed than 1.5 tonnes. HGVs do not typically have stopping distances equal to cars, nor the stability to change direction as quickly and safely.

Some truck and car drivers are oblivious to these facts, and sadly this sometimes costs dear.