Discussion
Drove a my sons Nissan Leaf the other day. Speaking as a Luddite I was truly shocked.
Disregard all the ECO stuff (argue about that if you want) and you still have a useful
4 seater commuter car capable of 120 miles without recharge. Financially it stacks up,
because fuel costs are lowered so dramatically that the extra cost of car purchase is
soon cancelled out.(If you had solar panels on your house roof, fuel costs would be
even lower and measured in pennies!)
Why was I shocked? Because the torque from the motor is amazing, just relentless.Corner
really hard to try and lift the inside front wheel and an LSD cuts in to stop you
wrecking the tyre. The 'success ballast' or batteries are mounted low down so the
handling is better than I expected.It had all the toys, you can phone it to check
charge progress,and even turn on the heating before you want to use it(via apps).
So before you consider taking the p**s go drive one!
Disregard all the ECO stuff (argue about that if you want) and you still have a useful
4 seater commuter car capable of 120 miles without recharge. Financially it stacks up,
because fuel costs are lowered so dramatically that the extra cost of car purchase is
soon cancelled out.(If you had solar panels on your house roof, fuel costs would be
even lower and measured in pennies!)
Why was I shocked? Because the torque from the motor is amazing, just relentless.Corner
really hard to try and lift the inside front wheel and an LSD cuts in to stop you
wrecking the tyre. The 'success ballast' or batteries are mounted low down so the
handling is better than I expected.It had all the toys, you can phone it to check
charge progress,and even turn on the heating before you want to use it(via apps).
So before you consider taking the p**s go drive one!
Drive these occasionally, the mileage shows 120 range when fully charged but soon drops to 80 ish after less than 30 miles.
The plus is the amazing torque from the engine and no gear changing to slow you either. The gripe what i have heard is that ( and i may be wrong here ) is that the batteries do not last the lifetime of the car and are very expensive to replace making depreciation a killer when you are nearing the end of battery life.
Oh, and they look a little weird as well...
The plus is the amazing torque from the engine and no gear changing to slow you either. The gripe what i have heard is that ( and i may be wrong here ) is that the batteries do not last the lifetime of the car and are very expensive to replace making depreciation a killer when you are nearing the end of battery life.
Oh, and they look a little weird as well...
Well lets look at those cost to run? As I think that was your point?
Your son's has all the toys?
So £20,490 to buy the Tekna?
Lets say 5 year lease at the maximum 12,000 miles per year the lease lets you have.
With £93 / month battery lease. Same lease price for cheapest model though.
£93 X 12 months= £1116 per year, just for the battery lease.
They say 10 hours at 10amps to charge on a domestic supply.
So I'll give you the full 120 miles per charge.
12,000 miles / 120 = 100 charges.
10amp at 240 volts is 2400 watts X 10 hours is 24kwh or 24 units of electricity.
24 x 12p per unit = £2.88 per charge.
£2.88 X 100 = £288 per year for the electricity. Cheap yes!
They say the rapid charger is a 6.6kW unit, so slightly more units used there for 4 hours to charge.
So far then £1116 + £288 = £1404 per year for 12,000 miles.
If you charge at night on half rate then £1116 + £144 = £1260
My S-type R does 25MPG at £6.60 a gallon.
12,000 / 25 = 480 X £6.60 = £3,168 This is an extreme example.
My son's 320d does 65MPG; so he tells me.
12,000 / 65 = 185 x £6.60 = £1221
So for running costs, the BMW 20d beats it. And has a range of well over 750 miles.
Now lets look at depreciation?
NO lets not, at there are lots of better cars out there that will beat it.
In fact my 10 year old S-Type R will beat it, if we compare replacing it with a leaf.
The spec, quality, ride, comfort and pleasure to drive my S-Type R beats it hands down and the MPG is lost in the comparison with depreciation.
So lets NOT sing the praises of how cheap these cars are to run, as the batteries cost a lot of money to lease and the overall cost of buying and running compared to a small diesel just does not add up.
Short trips and frequent charging will make it worse in electricity to charge.
HOWEVER, having said all that!
For those living in a polluted city, then I can understand and support you buying one, just so there is zero air pollution at the point of use.
That is what these cars are about, IMHO, not economy.
Although TAXING normal cars to make these seems cheaper is no doubt going to get worse.
But until London/etc. bans all the diesel Buses and Taxis, I would not even bother.
My last thought, having worked for National Grid, is, WHERE is all the Electricity for millions of electric cars going to come from?
On a wider note, if we don't start building at least 10 new Nuclear power stations soon, we won't have enough electricity to charge our mobile phones!
Your son's has all the toys?
So £20,490 to buy the Tekna?
Lets say 5 year lease at the maximum 12,000 miles per year the lease lets you have.
With £93 / month battery lease. Same lease price for cheapest model though.
£93 X 12 months= £1116 per year, just for the battery lease.
They say 10 hours at 10amps to charge on a domestic supply.
So I'll give you the full 120 miles per charge.
12,000 miles / 120 = 100 charges.
10amp at 240 volts is 2400 watts X 10 hours is 24kwh or 24 units of electricity.
24 x 12p per unit = £2.88 per charge.
£2.88 X 100 = £288 per year for the electricity. Cheap yes!
They say the rapid charger is a 6.6kW unit, so slightly more units used there for 4 hours to charge.
So far then £1116 + £288 = £1404 per year for 12,000 miles.
If you charge at night on half rate then £1116 + £144 = £1260
My S-type R does 25MPG at £6.60 a gallon.
12,000 / 25 = 480 X £6.60 = £3,168 This is an extreme example.
My son's 320d does 65MPG; so he tells me.
12,000 / 65 = 185 x £6.60 = £1221
So for running costs, the BMW 20d beats it. And has a range of well over 750 miles.
Now lets look at depreciation?
NO lets not, at there are lots of better cars out there that will beat it.
In fact my 10 year old S-Type R will beat it, if we compare replacing it with a leaf.
The spec, quality, ride, comfort and pleasure to drive my S-Type R beats it hands down and the MPG is lost in the comparison with depreciation.
So lets NOT sing the praises of how cheap these cars are to run, as the batteries cost a lot of money to lease and the overall cost of buying and running compared to a small diesel just does not add up.
Short trips and frequent charging will make it worse in electricity to charge.
HOWEVER, having said all that!
For those living in a polluted city, then I can understand and support you buying one, just so there is zero air pollution at the point of use.
That is what these cars are about, IMHO, not economy.
Although TAXING normal cars to make these seems cheaper is no doubt going to get worse.
But until London/etc. bans all the diesel Buses and Taxis, I would not even bother.
My last thought, having worked for National Grid, is, WHERE is all the Electricity for millions of electric cars going to come from?
On a wider note, if we don't start building at least 10 new Nuclear power stations soon, we won't have enough electricity to charge our mobile phones!
Edited by SkepticSteve on Sunday 25th August 23:31
SkepticSteve said:
HOWEVER, having said all that!
For those living in a polluted city, then I can understand and support you buying one, just so there is zero air pollution at the point of use.
That is what these cars are about, IMHO, not economy.
+1For those living in a polluted city, then I can understand and support you buying one, just so there is zero air pollution at the point of use.
That is what these cars are about, IMHO, not economy.
I do 25,000 miles a year and i was looking casually at the new i3 BMW. Any of their lease / PCP schemes are based around 8,000 miles a year, so clearly they're seeing the point of someone buying one of these as being its ECO credentials NOT because it can do 240mpg (or whatever)
SkepticSteve said:
Well lets look at those cost to run? As I think that was your point?
Your son's has all the toys?
So £20,490 to buy the Tekna?
Lets say 5 year lease at the maximum 12,000 miles per year the lease lets you have.
With £93 / month battery lease. Same lease price for cheapest model though.
£93 X 12 months= £1116 per year, just for the battery lease.
They say 10 hours at 10amps to charge on a domestic supply.
So I'll give you the full 120 miles per charge.
12,000 miles / 120 = 100 charges.
10amp at 240 volts is 2400 watts X 10 hours is 24kwh or 24 units of electricity.
24 x 12p per unit = £2.88 per charge.
£2.88 X 100 = £288 per year for the electricity. Cheap yes!
They say the rapid charger is a 6.6kW unit, so slightly more units used there for 4 hours to charge.
So far then £1116 + £288 = £1404 per year for 12,000 miles.
If you charge at night on half rate then £1116 + £144 = £1260
My S-type R does 25MPG at £6.60 a gallon.
12,000 / 25 = 480 X £6.60 = £3,168 This is an extreme example.
My son's 320d does 65MPG; so he tells me.
12,000 / 65 = 185 x £6.60 = £1221
So for running costs, the BMW 20d beats it. And has a range of well over 750 miles.
Now lets look at depreciation?
NO lets not, at there are lots of better cars out there that will beat it.
In fact my 10 year old S-Type R will beat it, if we compare replacing it with a leaf.
The spec, quality, ride, comfort and pleasure to drive my S-Type R beats it hands down and the MPG is lost in the comparison with depreciation.
So lets NOT sing the praises of how cheap these cars are to run, as the batteries cost a lot of money to lease and the overall cost of buying and running compared to a small diesel just does not add up.
Short trips and frequent charging will make it worse in electricity to charge.
HOWEVER, having said all that!
For those living in a polluted city, then I can understand and support you buying one, just so there is zero air pollution at the point of use.
That is what these cars are about, IMHO, not economy.
Although TAXING normal cars to make these seems cheaper is no doubt going to get worse.
But until London/etc. bans all the diesel Buses and Taxis, I would not even bother.
My last thought, having worked for National Grid, is, WHERE is all the Electricity for millions of electric cars going to come from?
On a wider note, if we don't start building at least 10 new Nuclear power stations soon, we won't have enough electricity to charge our mobile phones!
But if you have to drive in the congestion charge in London 5 days a week for 48 weeks, that's a saving of £9 per day on the Auto Pay or £45 a week or £2,160 a year. If you want to be really anal, add in the RFL costs etc. They also claim the regular maintenance will cost less, although that won't be seen for a few years yet.Your son's has all the toys?
So £20,490 to buy the Tekna?
Lets say 5 year lease at the maximum 12,000 miles per year the lease lets you have.
With £93 / month battery lease. Same lease price for cheapest model though.
£93 X 12 months= £1116 per year, just for the battery lease.
They say 10 hours at 10amps to charge on a domestic supply.
So I'll give you the full 120 miles per charge.
12,000 miles / 120 = 100 charges.
10amp at 240 volts is 2400 watts X 10 hours is 24kwh or 24 units of electricity.
24 x 12p per unit = £2.88 per charge.
£2.88 X 100 = £288 per year for the electricity. Cheap yes!
They say the rapid charger is a 6.6kW unit, so slightly more units used there for 4 hours to charge.
So far then £1116 + £288 = £1404 per year for 12,000 miles.
If you charge at night on half rate then £1116 + £144 = £1260
My S-type R does 25MPG at £6.60 a gallon.
12,000 / 25 = 480 X £6.60 = £3,168 This is an extreme example.
My son's 320d does 65MPG; so he tells me.
12,000 / 65 = 185 x £6.60 = £1221
So for running costs, the BMW 20d beats it. And has a range of well over 750 miles.
Now lets look at depreciation?
NO lets not, at there are lots of better cars out there that will beat it.
In fact my 10 year old S-Type R will beat it, if we compare replacing it with a leaf.
The spec, quality, ride, comfort and pleasure to drive my S-Type R beats it hands down and the MPG is lost in the comparison with depreciation.
So lets NOT sing the praises of how cheap these cars are to run, as the batteries cost a lot of money to lease and the overall cost of buying and running compared to a small diesel just does not add up.
Short trips and frequent charging will make it worse in electricity to charge.
HOWEVER, having said all that!
For those living in a polluted city, then I can understand and support you buying one, just so there is zero air pollution at the point of use.
That is what these cars are about, IMHO, not economy.
Although TAXING normal cars to make these seems cheaper is no doubt going to get worse.
But until London/etc. bans all the diesel Buses and Taxis, I would not even bother.
My last thought, having worked for National Grid, is, WHERE is all the Electricity for millions of electric cars going to come from?
On a wider note, if we don't start building at least 10 new Nuclear power stations soon, we won't have enough electricity to charge our mobile phones!
Edited by SkepticSteve on Sunday 25th August 23:31
Granted, it won't make sense for everyone, but for some it will.
For many the leaf will be just the job. I have neighbours who hate cars and would use public transport if it met their needs, for them this car will be fine, quite comfy, and cheap to run for the short journeys they do.
There is so much pressure from all angles to drive elctric that many will take this option. If they are happy then fine.
With company cars the taxation now is insane. Hence we have all the directors using Lexus Hybrids, middle managers using CT 200 Lexus and lower down using the Prius as they taxation is stacked in their favour.
People make decisions for he wierdest reasons but money is still a big one
There is so much pressure from all angles to drive elctric that many will take this option. If they are happy then fine.
With company cars the taxation now is insane. Hence we have all the directors using Lexus Hybrids, middle managers using CT 200 Lexus and lower down using the Prius as they taxation is stacked in their favour.
People make decisions for he wierdest reasons but money is still a big one
We had a Leaf at work and most peoples reactions when first driving it were exactly the same as the OP's. You soon become aware of the limitations (80 mile real life range although I think the latest ones are better). It has now been swapped for a Yaris.
If you live in an urban area, do low miles and have access to another car they make some sense.
BMW have addressed some of the concerns and limitations of electric cars in their i3 "package" but for most a decent diesel takes some beating from a financial perspective.
If you live in an urban area, do low miles and have access to another car they make some sense.
BMW have addressed some of the concerns and limitations of electric cars in their i3 "package" but for most a decent diesel takes some beating from a financial perspective.
320d....65mpg. Yes if grannied about.
My jazz does the same mpg, if grannied but more likely to do 48-55. It is cheaper to buy, and cheaper to put tires on and according to warranty direct is cheapest to fix if it ever does break. So works out as a very inexpensive car to drive.
Not many people drive their car to reach maximum efficiency.
Same way (as said above the leaf does not get the 120 mile range).
Why can't all the headline mpg or ranges be also advertised for the UK equivalent of Cletus (from the Simpsons) get a realistic MPG or range figure.
BTW any small car like the leaf would handle great compared to the usual barge etc.
My jazz does the same mpg, if grannied but more likely to do 48-55. It is cheaper to buy, and cheaper to put tires on and according to warranty direct is cheapest to fix if it ever does break. So works out as a very inexpensive car to drive.
Not many people drive their car to reach maximum efficiency.
Same way (as said above the leaf does not get the 120 mile range).
Why can't all the headline mpg or ranges be also advertised for the UK equivalent of Cletus (from the Simpsons) get a realistic MPG or range figure.
BTW any small car like the leaf would handle great compared to the usual barge etc.
SkepticSteve said:
My son's 320d does 65MPG; so he tells me.
12,000 / 65 = 185 x £6.60 = £1221
So for running costs, the BMW 20d beats it. And has a range of well over 750 miles.
Problem is you've used man maths, something i use every time i change my car. in fact my current Golf R32 was procured in a very similar way.12,000 / 65 = 185 x £6.60 = £1221
So for running costs, the BMW 20d beats it. And has a range of well over 750 miles.
by the book it'll do 65mpg, but this is only relevant if all mileage is done like this. so if you spend all your journeys on the motorway you'll get these figures. however if you dare do any round town, or use the M6... you'll achieve nowhere near.
My golf can push 30 on a run. day to day i see nearer 20.
on meFFSport said:
xRIEx said:
Where in the country is diesel the same price as petrol at the moment?
Just looked out of works window right now... Your point is vaild but the differance is minimal.Petrol = 1.409
Diesel = 1.429
For the sake on a gallon its only actually a 10p diff.
My local Esso currently...Petrol = 131.9p
Diesel = 137.9p
SkepticSteve said:
Well lets look at those cost to run? As I think that was your point?
Your son's has all the toys?
So £20,490 to buy the Tekna?
Lets say 5 year lease at the maximum 12,000 miles per year the lease lets you have.
With £93 / month battery lease. Same lease price for cheapest model though.
£93 X 12 months= £1116 per year, just for the battery lease.
They say 10 hours at 10amps to charge on a domestic supply.
So I'll give you the full 120 miles per charge.
12,000 miles / 120 = 100 charges.
10amp at 240 volts is 2400 watts X 10 hours is 24kwh or 24 units of electricity.
24 x 12p per unit = £2.88 per charge.
£2.88 X 100 = £288 per year for the electricity. Cheap yes!
They say the rapid charger is a 6.6kW unit, so slightly more units used there for 4 hours to charge.
So far then £1116 + £288 = £1404 per year for 12,000 miles.
If you charge at night on half rate then £1116 + £144 = £1260
My S-type R does 25MPG at £6.60 a gallon.
12,000 / 25 = 480 X £6.60 = £3,168 This is an extreme example.
My son's 320d does 65MPG; so he tells me.
12,000 / 65 = 185 x £6.60 = £1221
So for running costs, the BMW 20d beats it. And has a range of well over 750 miles.
Now lets look at depreciation?
NO lets not, at there are lots of better cars out there that will beat it.
In fact my 10 year old S-Type R will beat it, if we compare replacing it with a leaf.
The spec, quality, ride, comfort and pleasure to drive my S-Type R beats it hands down and the MPG is lost in the comparison with depreciation.
So lets NOT sing the praises of how cheap these cars are to run, as the batteries cost a lot of money to lease and the overall cost of buying and running compared to a small diesel just does not add up.
Short trips and frequent charging will make it worse in electricity to charge.
HOWEVER, having said all that!
For those living in a polluted city, then I can understand and support you buying one, just so there is zero air pollution at the point of use.
That is what these cars are about, IMHO, not economy.
Although TAXING normal cars to make these seems cheaper is no doubt going to get worse.
But until London/etc. bans all the diesel Buses and Taxis, I would not even bother.
My last thought, having worked for National Grid, is, WHERE is all the Electricity for millions of electric cars going to come from?
On a wider note, if we don't start building at least 10 new Nuclear power stations soon, we won't have enough electricity to charge our mobile phones!
Far too much time on your hands. Your son's has all the toys?
So £20,490 to buy the Tekna?
Lets say 5 year lease at the maximum 12,000 miles per year the lease lets you have.
With £93 / month battery lease. Same lease price for cheapest model though.
£93 X 12 months= £1116 per year, just for the battery lease.
They say 10 hours at 10amps to charge on a domestic supply.
So I'll give you the full 120 miles per charge.
12,000 miles / 120 = 100 charges.
10amp at 240 volts is 2400 watts X 10 hours is 24kwh or 24 units of electricity.
24 x 12p per unit = £2.88 per charge.
£2.88 X 100 = £288 per year for the electricity. Cheap yes!
They say the rapid charger is a 6.6kW unit, so slightly more units used there for 4 hours to charge.
So far then £1116 + £288 = £1404 per year for 12,000 miles.
If you charge at night on half rate then £1116 + £144 = £1260
My S-type R does 25MPG at £6.60 a gallon.
12,000 / 25 = 480 X £6.60 = £3,168 This is an extreme example.
My son's 320d does 65MPG; so he tells me.
12,000 / 65 = 185 x £6.60 = £1221
So for running costs, the BMW 20d beats it. And has a range of well over 750 miles.
Now lets look at depreciation?
NO lets not, at there are lots of better cars out there that will beat it.
In fact my 10 year old S-Type R will beat it, if we compare replacing it with a leaf.
The spec, quality, ride, comfort and pleasure to drive my S-Type R beats it hands down and the MPG is lost in the comparison with depreciation.
So lets NOT sing the praises of how cheap these cars are to run, as the batteries cost a lot of money to lease and the overall cost of buying and running compared to a small diesel just does not add up.
Short trips and frequent charging will make it worse in electricity to charge.
HOWEVER, having said all that!
For those living in a polluted city, then I can understand and support you buying one, just so there is zero air pollution at the point of use.
That is what these cars are about, IMHO, not economy.
Although TAXING normal cars to make these seems cheaper is no doubt going to get worse.
But until London/etc. bans all the diesel Buses and Taxis, I would not even bother.
My last thought, having worked for National Grid, is, WHERE is all the Electricity for millions of electric cars going to come from?
On a wider note, if we don't start building at least 10 new Nuclear power stations soon, we won't have enough electricity to charge our mobile phones!
Edited by SkepticSteve on Sunday 25th August 23:31
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