Friday 6th September 2013

Ringside Seat: Sub Seven

Are we about to see a production car capable of a sub seven-minute Nurburgring lap?

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Lap times at the Nurburgring are a controversial subject for many PHers, and it's easy to understand why. But there are times, like right now, that you just can't avoid them.

Can the 895kg 4C post a quick time?

But to which manufacturer's effort am I referring this time?

Is it Chevrolet, spotted testing a new Stingray-based test mule that could well be the next-generation Z06? Maybe it's Honda's new Civic Type-R? The Alfa Romeo 4C? Nissan has also been very busy with an awesome-looking car that we all believe to be the R35 GT-R NISMO. As devastatingly fast as it looks right now, actually no.

They've all been here this week, but all the discussion is currently about two cars that are both attempting to grab some headlines. The 887hp Porsche 918 Spyder and the even-more-stupendously-spec'd McLaren P1 have been testing hard here at the Nurburgring. These are a new breed of supercar and they could be quicker than anything we've ever seen before (as long as the 6min 48sec Radical SR8 LM is ignored, which isn't type-approved as a road car).

Porsche preps its GT-R NISMO challenger...

A little over 10 years ago a sub-eight lap time of the 'ring was deemed phenomenal. Then, egged on no doubt by the GT-R's antics, the lap times dipped even lower and cars like the Viper ACR and Corvette ZR1 actually headed into the low teens. Fanboys frothed at the mouth, James May derided the times as irrelevant.

What's interesting right now is how silent the Porsche and McLaren camps are. Both have been testing during industry pool and big-bucks private sessions on the Nordschleife. Both cars have been spotted with pro drivers doing hot laps followed by cool-down laps, a sure sign that there's a lap time effort being made. Helicopters have hovered, GoPros have been attached.

But in this age of social media I'm really lucky to have spoken to people both directly and indirectly involved in both testing groups, and one thing seems clear: a sub-seven lap is on the cards. One particular nugget of information was dished out regarding the P1; "Without a sub-seven lap time, we probably won't even mention we were at the Nurburgring."

All eyes are on the P1 for now

The last and only 'production' car to achieve that kind of pace was the Radical SR8 LM, which is hardly a machine you could cruise Mayfair in. Although its £80K price actually looks cheap compared to the £1m-plus P1!

But what would does it mean to us, the car-obsessed fans who read about these endeavours? Lap times from the 'ring are like reading about celebrity weddings and divorces. Sure, it's interesting if you like the brand or celeb involved, but isn't it just totally irrelevant? I'd really like to hear from you guys though. What does it mean if either of these hypercars can dip under seven? Everything or nothing?

 

 

[Sources: McLaren pics by Ring-bilder.de, GT-R video by MonsterChannel24 via YouTube]

[edinph]

It's been said many times, and is still true. Just because a car is fast around this track does not make it a great drive on the road!

[TREMAiNE]

I don't get the obsession with lap times, nor the obsession with any bar room paper figure.

On the real road is where it all counts, unless you regularly track your car, in which case fk what I just said and get back on the track!

[matpilch]

the importance of 'ring laptime is overrated

[Passeyfier]

matpilch said:

the importance of 'ring laptime is overrated

Definitely! It seems too many manufacturers are caught up in the N'ring lap time hype. So what if it goes round in (insert time), if it rides like a pile of logs on the road then what's the point?

[Matt UK]

Hmmm

I remember when the ring was used for endurance testing parts and components and there was little known to joe puclic in the way of lap times.

Then it moved onto 'handling' on the basis it was more road like than pretty much any other track - the e39 M5 is the car that brought this to life for me when reading the reviews at the time.

And now we have moved onto willy-waving competitive lap times in road cars... I just don't really see the point. I really is a stat for only the most simple of buyers and fanbois to quote out loud (who also seem to be the ones spouting these facts as bar-flies in the local or over their xbox live mics)

Plus, having driven the place, I personally think that the extra time available to take back off the table is often dictated by the drivers willingness / unwillingness to die a fiery death into the worlds most expensive armco (for which your next-of-kin will be billed for..)

Edited by Matt UK on Friday 6th September 12:55

[sleep envy]

Passeyfier said:

matpilch said:

the importance of 'ring laptime is overrated

Definitely! It seems too many manufacturers are caught up in the N'ring lap time hype. So what if it goes round in (insert time), if it rides like a pile of logs on the road then what's the point?

internet dick swinging points

whoop-de-woo!

[aarondbs]

I think it interesting AND irrelevant. Referring to a thread yesterday re old vs new cars (read analogue vs digital) its not about lap times for most of us on the road, more about what a car makes us feel and how we interact with it that counts. A good 'ring time is impressive and, for carbores, another thing to talk about in the pub/gym/kids party but for most of us not really what its about. Dale's track times and regales of fun at the 'ring in an E36 are far more 'relevant'.

It would be relevant were we talking race cars, cars that are actually going to race, even track days are about fun and feel more than outright lap times.

[TIGA84]

Road car records mean nothing other than bragging rights, and they are all tweaked with trick tyres, ECU boosts etc anyway for max attack.

What would be more interesting is if a manufacturer decided to try and break Bellofs 30 odd year old record with a proper racecar.

6.11 and no-one is even half a minute near it in anything!

[zefrog]

[QUOTE] Although its £80k price actually looks cheap compared to the £1m-plus P1!
[/quote]
can someone explain me why/where the difference has been spent/put ?

Edited by zefrog on Friday 6th September 12:59

[anonymous-user]

I find it (moderately) amusing, and perhaps a sign of the times, that you hear many times:

"my car doesn't do as many mpg as the manufacturer claims"

but I've never (yet) heard:

"I can't lap the N'ring as quickly as the manufacturer claims".

Which, given that both of those claims take a huge amount of effort to generate and are difficult/impossible for us mere mortals to reproduce, perhaps tells you something?

[jtopps]

I would guess that the money has been spent on building a more refined car with a higher top speed and luxuries such as a roof and windows. The Radical is a rocket powered bathtub. A cool one but not what you'd call anything other than a track car.

[anonymous-user]

It's interesting as comparative tests go and I can understand supercars engaging in this as a statement of their engineering prowess and also as probably one of the limited number of places that owners could utilise a reasonable percentage of the car's capability. But when Vauxhall introduce the 'ring edition of the Corsa, you know it's a ridiculous obsession.

[MitchT]

TIGA84 said:

What would be more interesting is if a manufacturer decided to try and break Bellofs 30 odd year old record with a proper racecar.

6.11 and no-one is even half a minute near it in anything!

Do you think an F1 car could do it if it was actually driven hard? All the modern F1 laps of the 'ring were cringeworthily slow - I'd like to see one done properly.

[jtopps]

I would guess that the money has been spent on building a more refined car with a higher top speed and luxuries such as a roof and windows. The Radical is a rocket powered bathtub. A cool one but not what you'd call anything other than a track car.

[Matt UK]

Mutema said:

It's interesting as comparative tests go and I can understand supercars engaging in this as a statement of their engineering prowess and also as probably one of the limited number of places that owners could utilise a reasonable percentage of the car's capability. But when Vauxhall introduce the 'ring edition of the Corsa, you know it's a ridiculous obsession.

IMO, if you are looking for a track to utilise a cars capability, I think the 'ring is more suited to a hot Corsa than todays supercars.

[ewenm]

Article said:

But what would does it mean to us, the car-obsessed fans who read about these endeavours? Lap times from the 'ring are like reading about celebrities' weddings and divorces. Sure, it's interesting if you like the brand or celeb involved, but isn't it just totally irrelevant? I'd really like to hear from you guys though. What does it mean if either of these hypercars can dip under seven? Everything or nothing?

This is the best paragraph of the piece. Ring times are interesting bits of trivia when you're bored, but rarely important information in choosing a car.

[subirg]

If Ring times weren't important, the biggest car manufacturers on Earth wouldn't spend millions each year trying to set them... Deny it all you want - these things do matter enough. No idea why... but they do.

[Debaser]

It's not that irrelevant, a car that's fast around the Nürburgring will be fast along a country road.

How many people who think a car needs rock hard suspension to go fast at the Nürburgring have even driven there?

[Debaser]

Max_Torque said:

I find it (moderately) amusing, and perhaps a sign of the times, that you hear many times:

"my car doesn't do as many mpg as the manufacturer claims"

but I've never (yet) heard:

"I can't lap the N'ring as quickly as the manufacturer claims".

Which, given that both of those claims take a huge amount of effort to generate and are difficult/impossible for us mere mortals to reproduce, perhaps tells you something?

I remember Porsche said that about a Nissan GTR they'd bought...

[Shibbyjames]

The Nurburgring lap times are an exciting and real demonstration of the capabilities of a car which then provide us an easy and understandable benchmarked against other cars in the industry. It is a great way of demonstrating what all the tech, investment and marketing is shouting about and saying "there you go world - we did it" The fact that most of these cars never get driven that hard is irrelevant - it's all about the prestige of owning that piece of automotive supremacy. After all, I would like to own an F1 car even as a museum piece, the fact i'll never drive it would not detract from how awesome it is.