Why do modern cars isolate feel from the driver so much?
Discussion
Even cars which are supposed to be sporty are still so refined they feel numb. I know modern cars are typically heavier and often have electric steering amongst other things, but is there something else going on mechanically to make them feel so dull? Are all the parts the driver interacts with now specifically designed to be so ridiculously insulating just through some blinkered pursuit of refinement, i.e. softer suspension bushes etc?
I've not driven all the generations of different cars but I see the same thing time and again on forums like the following:
BMW 3 series fun factor:
E30 > E36 > E46 (think it might have got better with the E90 but not sure)
MX5 fun factor:
Mk1 > Mk2 > Mk3
So what's going on? I really hope more manufacturers recognise there are lots of us out there who prefer a bit of rawness to refinement as I think Toyobaru did with the GT86! But there's not much out there built since the 90s that really appeals to me anymore, am I the only one?
I've not driven all the generations of different cars but I see the same thing time and again on forums like the following:
BMW 3 series fun factor:
E30 > E36 > E46 (think it might have got better with the E90 but not sure)
MX5 fun factor:
Mk1 > Mk2 > Mk3
So what's going on? I really hope more manufacturers recognise there are lots of us out there who prefer a bit of rawness to refinement as I think Toyobaru did with the GT86! But there's not much out there built since the 90s that really appeals to me anymore, am I the only one?
VeeFource said:
...there are lots of us out there who prefer a bit of rawness to refinement...
Problem is - there isn't 'lots of us'. How many people in the UK bought a Megane R26.R for example? Hardly anyone, despite rave reviews. How do you think Vauxhall manage to sell so many cars? (OK, broad statement I admit). Sadly the enthusiast is in the minority. To most driving is seen as a necessary chore, just like sitting on a train or riding a bus, so anything that makes this 'chore' easier and less stressful for the majority will be seen as a good thing. Sadly it moves most manufacturers targets in directions completely at odds with the desire of the keen driver. Thankfully there are still concessions for the enthusiast - for now. But for how long?VeeFource said:
Haha! Yes but they still make Top Gear as there's still a market for non-morons. S
Did you really just type that?I can't think of a better example of the decline of the motoring enthusiast than the way Top Gear has gone. It barely even pretends to be about cars these days.
RenesisEvo said:
VeeFource said:
...there are lots of us out there who prefer a bit of rawness to refinement...
Problem is - there isn't 'lots of us'. How many people in the UK bought a Megane R26.R for example? Hardly anyone, despite rave reviews. How do you think Vauxhall manage to sell so many cars? (OK, broad statement I admit). Sadly the enthusiast is in the minority. To most driving is seen as a necessary chore, just like sitting on a train or riding a bus, so anything that makes this 'chore' easier and less stressful for the majority will be seen as a good thing. Sadly it moves most manufacturers targets in directions completely at odds with the desire of the keen driver. Thankfully there are still concessions for the enthusiast - for now. But for how long?
Even motorcycles seem to be going the refinement way and there are proportionally a lot more of us just wanting them to keep it simples, but we're still ignored it'd seemkambites said:
VeeFource said:
Haha! Yes but they still make Top Gear as there's still a market for non-morons. S
Did you really just type that?I can't think of a better example of the decline of the motoring enthusiast than the way Top Gear has gone. It barely even pretends to be about cars these days.
Because it's what people want. My father, for instance, is a bit of a petrolhead and has owned a variety of interesting cars over the years, but he recently sold his subaru forester (hardly the most raw of cars!) because he found it irritating to drive.
He's only 55 - certainly not at an age where he's physically unable to drive a decent car, but for most of his driving there's just no need for him to have a car with sharp steering and a heavy clutch, so as far as he's concerned, there's no point in having one.
He replaced it with an auto jeep grand cherokee which handles like a boat, but it's quiet, comfortable, smooth, easy to drive and the 5.7 hemi engine has enough power for overtaking and joining motorways.
I'm only 19 - exactly the age when I should be driving a car with a lot of "feel", but I'd only every consider a traditional sports car as a weekend car. The fact is, most of my time behind the wheel is spent in town or on the motorway, where my XJ makes a huge amount more sense than a Cooper S or 182.
He's only 55 - certainly not at an age where he's physically unable to drive a decent car, but for most of his driving there's just no need for him to have a car with sharp steering and a heavy clutch, so as far as he's concerned, there's no point in having one.
He replaced it with an auto jeep grand cherokee which handles like a boat, but it's quiet, comfortable, smooth, easy to drive and the 5.7 hemi engine has enough power for overtaking and joining motorways.
I'm only 19 - exactly the age when I should be driving a car with a lot of "feel", but I'd only every consider a traditional sports car as a weekend car. The fact is, most of my time behind the wheel is spent in town or on the motorway, where my XJ makes a huge amount more sense than a Cooper S or 182.
HustleRussell said:
There is hope. Ford and Mazda have been working very hard to keep the weight of their cars down, Toyota/Subaru GT86, Lotus and Caterham surviving etc etc... Drivers are still well catered for IMO.
Yeah hopefully you're right, things do seem to be coming about a bit. I read somewhere about how BMW are making weight their primary efforts with their new M cars, but I just don't know if this trend will necessarily translate into getting some feel back.It's just not right MX5s become less and less fun with each incarnation, that's supposed to be the point of this car for crying out loud, not refinement!!
VeeFource said:
BMW 3 series fun factor:
E30 > E36 > E46 (think it might have got better with the E90 but not sure)
It certainly didn't get better with the E90 - too big, too much weight. The problem (as far as I'm concerned) is that most people want "essentials" like heated seats, electric everything and evermore intrusive safety systems. You eventually end up with something that isn't much fun to drive at all really, despite what some of the on-paper numbers might suggest (eg BHP)E30 > E36 > E46 (think it might have got better with the E90 but not sure)
fatboy b said:
You need to plonk yourself in an XF. After 3 BMWs and 3 Audis, mine's a breath of fresh-air! Even with the weight, it handles pretty damn well IMO.
It's not so much a question of handling though, modern cars are generally great at that. But to me fun comes more from how a car feels than being able to go around a corner at mach 4, and these days you feel more like a passenger than a driverI think to some degree its pretty difficult for the manufacturers these days, With the cars often being the weight they are things like power steering are a necessity. If it went on my old Vectra i'd probably struggle to manhandle it at lower speeds due to the sticky wide tyres and the fact it was designed from the go to have it fitted.
Also a lot of the new tech requires stuff to be electronic and there to be an element of isolation so that it can intervene in the event of an incident.
I think it has already come a to head however where almost any new car, is so quiet and refined, and easy to drive etc. That it ends up not requiring as much concentration to drive, yet you need to catch yourself to try and stay alert to environmental inputs.
Back in the 60/70s it would a quite ludicrous excuse the old 'I'm sorry office I had no idea I was going x', as you would clearly be very aware you were traveling at speed over 50-60mph. In a modern car, with extremely linear power delivery, and excellent nvh, you'd struggle to appreciate the differece between 30 and 60 mph if you did not have posts etc as a visual cue.
I'd argue you might need some element to come back to prevent complacency / tiredness.
Yes there are exceptions, but how many of these are available to people with more humble means?
Back in the 90s for example you could have something like an Xr3i, or Cavalier SRI, or a V6 etc and they had some albeit minor, mechanical alterations which differentiated them from the mainstream models, and in the SRi for example (not so clued up on Fords) you generally got less kit and it was lighter as such (why would you want a dolby stereo and a fridge in the back...you've got the gls for that...)
These days the cars achievable to mere mortals like me are simply badge changes harking back to simpler times. Lotus still going is great, I love them, sadly with only being able to afford to run one car, and doing a 40 mile commute etc etc. There is too much compromise required for the newer cars which offer involvement or they are too expensive.
I got really excited when hearing about the Opel Monza making a return, hoping for a Puma like car from a more affordable make. Sadly it appears to be a blingy showcase for hybrid tech, and not the simple, fun rwd small coupe it could have been.
Also a lot of the new tech requires stuff to be electronic and there to be an element of isolation so that it can intervene in the event of an incident.
I think it has already come a to head however where almost any new car, is so quiet and refined, and easy to drive etc. That it ends up not requiring as much concentration to drive, yet you need to catch yourself to try and stay alert to environmental inputs.
Back in the 60/70s it would a quite ludicrous excuse the old 'I'm sorry office I had no idea I was going x', as you would clearly be very aware you were traveling at speed over 50-60mph. In a modern car, with extremely linear power delivery, and excellent nvh, you'd struggle to appreciate the differece between 30 and 60 mph if you did not have posts etc as a visual cue.
I'd argue you might need some element to come back to prevent complacency / tiredness.
Yes there are exceptions, but how many of these are available to people with more humble means?
Back in the 90s for example you could have something like an Xr3i, or Cavalier SRI, or a V6 etc and they had some albeit minor, mechanical alterations which differentiated them from the mainstream models, and in the SRi for example (not so clued up on Fords) you generally got less kit and it was lighter as such (why would you want a dolby stereo and a fridge in the back...you've got the gls for that...)
These days the cars achievable to mere mortals like me are simply badge changes harking back to simpler times. Lotus still going is great, I love them, sadly with only being able to afford to run one car, and doing a 40 mile commute etc etc. There is too much compromise required for the newer cars which offer involvement or they are too expensive.
I got really excited when hearing about the Opel Monza making a return, hoping for a Puma like car from a more affordable make. Sadly it appears to be a blingy showcase for hybrid tech, and not the simple, fun rwd small coupe it could have been.
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