Car audio - disconnect the tweeters & rears after upgrading?
Discussion
Evening guys, putting this post in here since there's no specific section for car audio. Mods - move if needed.
I've recently added an Alpine iDA-305 and two new JL C2-650x coaxial speakers in the front to my 2004 STI.
I'm going to add some Dynamat to replace the plastic skin to give the sound more of a chance and to stop the vibration against the inner plastic door card but what should I do with the existing front tweeters and rears? Do I disconnect them and will that improve the sound or should I leave them in? I'm using the stock wiring which powered a component speaker and tweeter in each door, btw.
In my short testing this evening the speakers proved extremely good but I do seem to be missing lower bass from them. I'm not after sub-like thump but I can tell lower frequencies are missing or shallow at best.
Basic questions so hopefully simple answers.
I've recently added an Alpine iDA-305 and two new JL C2-650x coaxial speakers in the front to my 2004 STI.
I'm going to add some Dynamat to replace the plastic skin to give the sound more of a chance and to stop the vibration against the inner plastic door card but what should I do with the existing front tweeters and rears? Do I disconnect them and will that improve the sound or should I leave them in? I'm using the stock wiring which powered a component speaker and tweeter in each door, btw.
In my short testing this evening the speakers proved extremely good but I do seem to be missing lower bass from them. I'm not after sub-like thump but I can tell lower frequencies are missing or shallow at best.
Basic questions so hopefully simple answers.
Edited by Ved on Sunday 22 September 14:12
It's commendable that you're looking to upgrade the standard rubbish to something better, but you're going about it the wrong way.
Trust me - in everything bar the highest-end cars with things like B&W installs, ALL the standard fitment audio is VERY budget and built down to a price.
As you've already correctly identified - the speakers are the first port of call. But the wiring is also nowhere near fit for use for an upgrade.
Often, the head unit isn't TOO bad - for example, if someone was on a tight budget, I would suggest replacing all the cabling, the speakers and adding an amp BEFORE replacing the source head unit.
Anyway, you've replaced the head unit already. So now, trust me - you should disconnect the remaining standard speakers, and make the standard wiring redundant. Get some quality speaker cable, and run it through to the new units. The reason you have limited bass and power is because you are using tiny, thin stock wiring.
Better still - now you've got everything apart inside the car to do this - maybe think about getting a separate power amp? They're cheap these days...and I would look on ebay and think about buying an older Japanese Kenwood or similar, rather than buying a recent, brand-new Chinese made unit.
An example of decent kit at a knock-down price would be the Kenwood KAC-845 amp I bought from ebay for £20 recently. An almost indestructable and quality unit.
It's a shame also that you started your mods at the front. Much better to start at the back, if you're pushed for time and money. You'll never get a set of front door speakers producing decent sound and power - really you should have started by building a new parcel shelf or converting you existing shelf with some MDF and a pair of quality 6x9 3-way speakers. The fronts are then suited to supplementing and filling-in for the rears, in a wel-balanced setup.
HTH
Trust me - in everything bar the highest-end cars with things like B&W installs, ALL the standard fitment audio is VERY budget and built down to a price.
As you've already correctly identified - the speakers are the first port of call. But the wiring is also nowhere near fit for use for an upgrade.
Often, the head unit isn't TOO bad - for example, if someone was on a tight budget, I would suggest replacing all the cabling, the speakers and adding an amp BEFORE replacing the source head unit.
Anyway, you've replaced the head unit already. So now, trust me - you should disconnect the remaining standard speakers, and make the standard wiring redundant. Get some quality speaker cable, and run it through to the new units. The reason you have limited bass and power is because you are using tiny, thin stock wiring.
Better still - now you've got everything apart inside the car to do this - maybe think about getting a separate power amp? They're cheap these days...and I would look on ebay and think about buying an older Japanese Kenwood or similar, rather than buying a recent, brand-new Chinese made unit.
An example of decent kit at a knock-down price would be the Kenwood KAC-845 amp I bought from ebay for £20 recently. An almost indestructable and quality unit.
It's a shame also that you started your mods at the front. Much better to start at the back, if you're pushed for time and money. You'll never get a set of front door speakers producing decent sound and power - really you should have started by building a new parcel shelf or converting you existing shelf with some MDF and a pair of quality 6x9 3-way speakers. The fronts are then suited to supplementing and filling-in for the rears, in a wel-balanced setup.
HTH
That. Is a comprehensive reply.
Op, I know less than you re ICE, but I think you need to run the speaker cable directly to the new co-axial speakers. Separate speakers use a cross over (I think) to divvy the sound between them which co-axials don't need.
On Rays point about cable, Its mega important in a home system, so it would be likewise in a car. However, when faced with trying to change the cable in mine, it was such a faff, especially drivers side under the steering wheel, that I didn't bother.
I've just changed the speakers on my new MX5 - dynamat made a massive difference.
Op, I know less than you re ICE, but I think you need to run the speaker cable directly to the new co-axial speakers. Separate speakers use a cross over (I think) to divvy the sound between them which co-axials don't need.
On Rays point about cable, Its mega important in a home system, so it would be likewise in a car. However, when faced with trying to change the cable in mine, it was such a faff, especially drivers side under the steering wheel, that I didn't bother.
I've just changed the speakers on my new MX5 - dynamat made a massive difference.
Ray Luxury-Yacht said:
It's commendable that you're looking to upgrade the standard rubbish to something better, but you're going about it the wrong way.
Trust me - in everything bar the highest-end cars with things like B&W installs, ALL the standard fitment audio is VERY budget and built down to a price.
As you've already correctly identified - the speakers are the first port of call. But the wiring is also nowhere near fit for use for an upgrade.
Often, the head unit isn't TOO bad - for example, if someone was on a tight budget, I would suggest replacing all the cabling, the speakers and adding an amp BEFORE replacing the source head unit.
Anyway, you've replaced the head unit already. So now, trust me - you should disconnect the remaining standard speakers, and make the standard wiring redundant. Get some quality speaker cable, and run it through to the new units. The reason you have limited bass and power is because you are using tiny, thin stock wiring.
Better still - now you've got everything apart inside the car to do this - maybe think about getting a separate power amp? They're cheap these days...and I would look on ebay and think about buying an older Japanese Kenwood or similar, rather than buying a recent, brand-new Chinese made unit.
An example of decent kit at a knock-down price would be the Kenwood KAC-845 amp I bought from ebay for £20 recently. An almost indestructable and quality unit.
It's a shame also that you started your mods at the front. Much better to start at the back, if you're pushed for time and money. You'll never get a set of front door speakers producing decent sound and power - really you should have started by building a new parcel shelf or converting you existing shelf with some MDF and a pair of quality 6x9 3-way speakers. The fronts are then suited to supplementing and filling-in for the rears, in a wel-balanced setup.
HTH
From what you have written, I guess you haven't had a career in in car audio!Trust me - in everything bar the highest-end cars with things like B&W installs, ALL the standard fitment audio is VERY budget and built down to a price.
As you've already correctly identified - the speakers are the first port of call. But the wiring is also nowhere near fit for use for an upgrade.
Often, the head unit isn't TOO bad - for example, if someone was on a tight budget, I would suggest replacing all the cabling, the speakers and adding an amp BEFORE replacing the source head unit.
Anyway, you've replaced the head unit already. So now, trust me - you should disconnect the remaining standard speakers, and make the standard wiring redundant. Get some quality speaker cable, and run it through to the new units. The reason you have limited bass and power is because you are using tiny, thin stock wiring.
Better still - now you've got everything apart inside the car to do this - maybe think about getting a separate power amp? They're cheap these days...and I would look on ebay and think about buying an older Japanese Kenwood or similar, rather than buying a recent, brand-new Chinese made unit.
An example of decent kit at a knock-down price would be the Kenwood KAC-845 amp I bought from ebay for £20 recently. An almost indestructable and quality unit.
It's a shame also that you started your mods at the front. Much better to start at the back, if you're pushed for time and money. You'll never get a set of front door speakers producing decent sound and power - really you should have started by building a new parcel shelf or converting you existing shelf with some MDF and a pair of quality 6x9 3-way speakers. The fronts are then suited to supplementing and filling-in for the rears, in a wel-balanced setup.
HTH
Start at the back? add an amp and speakers before changing the source? No No No!
You get out what you put in, crap in, crap out. If the original source distorts then that is a quick way to kill your speakers. Distortion will kill a speaker quicker than over powering it.
Change the head unit first. Add a small sub and take the bass off the standard speakers, a decent head unit will have a high pass filter on it. This will allow you to get more volume out of the speakers as they don't have to deal with the bass frequency's. Add an amp for the 4 speakers if you can afford it and use the high pass filter on the amp, turn the H/U one off now.
I do agree to use an old quality amp if you are on a budget, plenty of bargains on ebay etc.
Spend money on decent quality front component speakers, when fitting the tweeters, use some blu-tac and keep the wires long, experiment on where they sound best. I do like to put them in the corners of the windscreen, pointing up so the sound bounces off the screen and to your ears but this is personal preference and you may like them in a different position. Some components let you attenuate the tweeter, I usually do this as they are nearer to your ear than the mid bass.
You want the front to be the sound stage, the back is just a bit of rear fill. Come on, who goes to a concert and stands with their back to the band!
OP: listen to RA500.
While on speaker wires, many years ago I saw an article in What Hi-Fi (or similar... a mag that took its sound quality VERY seriously, anyway). They blind-tested a whole bunch of speaker wires, from the sort of thin cheap stuff you'll have in your car, right up to gold plated, oxygen free, unobtanium wires. The panel agreed that changing only the speaker wire in their test system noticably changed the sound. Thing was, a fair number of their panel liked the cheapest stuff best....
Moral: don't bother changing the wire, it's more than capable of carrying the power you need, and you might like the new sound less than the old!
For everything you ever wanted to know about car audio: www.bcae1.com
While on speaker wires, many years ago I saw an article in What Hi-Fi (or similar... a mag that took its sound quality VERY seriously, anyway). They blind-tested a whole bunch of speaker wires, from the sort of thin cheap stuff you'll have in your car, right up to gold plated, oxygen free, unobtanium wires. The panel agreed that changing only the speaker wire in their test system noticably changed the sound. Thing was, a fair number of their panel liked the cheapest stuff best....
Moral: don't bother changing the wire, it's more than capable of carrying the power you need, and you might like the new sound less than the old!
For everything you ever wanted to know about car audio: www.bcae1.com
Ordering some new wiring and potentially a small inline amp next week.
Daft question but if I want to bypass the old existing wiring does it need to be wired into the ISO block or do I take it directly from the outputs on the back of the head unit and then into the amp.
Just to confirm there is some bass but the low stuff I would expect is missing.
Daft question but if I want to bypass the old existing wiring does it need to be wired into the ISO block or do I take it directly from the outputs on the back of the head unit and then into the amp.
Just to confirm there is some bass but the low stuff I would expect is missing.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Infinity-Amplifier-/3212...
Will do all you need I'd say, not too far from you?, ok, it will need a few screws but they aren't hard to get.
A quality older amp will most likely give a better sound than some of the new ones I've heard!
Don't use an 'in-line' amp, use the RCA (phono) connectors on the head unit. If you can wire direct from the amp to the speakers, do it, if not, run them back to the ISO at the front, use a new connector so it all plugs in. it will be easy to do the back speakers, harder for the fronts (if you want to keep it OEM looking and no extra wires on show anywhere)
If you don't like that old amp, look for older second hand ones from the likes of Infinity, Alpine, Kenwood, Kicker, Phoenix Gold, Rockford Fosgate etc
Adam. (Ex In Car Entertainment installer)
Will do all you need I'd say, not too far from you?, ok, it will need a few screws but they aren't hard to get.
A quality older amp will most likely give a better sound than some of the new ones I've heard!
Don't use an 'in-line' amp, use the RCA (phono) connectors on the head unit. If you can wire direct from the amp to the speakers, do it, if not, run them back to the ISO at the front, use a new connector so it all plugs in. it will be easy to do the back speakers, harder for the fronts (if you want to keep it OEM looking and no extra wires on show anywhere)
If you don't like that old amp, look for older second hand ones from the likes of Infinity, Alpine, Kenwood, Kicker, Phoenix Gold, Rockford Fosgate etc
Adam. (Ex In Car Entertainment installer)
Thanks Adam, very good advice and the link might be a goer.
I should be able to get the power to the amp through the firewall or through where the AC pipe pass thought.
One further question if I may? If I put the amp under the driver's seat how have you secured it in place in the past? Do you put a wooden fixing board under the carpet and mount it the amp over it sandwiching the carpet? There's a handy place to ground the amp next to the seat so that's my first idea.
I should be able to get the power to the amp through the firewall or through where the AC pipe pass thought.
One further question if I may? If I put the amp under the driver's seat how have you secured it in place in the past? Do you put a wooden fixing board under the carpet and mount it the amp over it sandwiching the carpet? There's a handy place to ground the amp next to the seat so that's my first idea.
Edited by Ved on Sunday 22 September 11:34
You're welcome.
Yes, usually a sandwich with a board. I have seen them fitted with velcro before, and it seemed to work although I wouldn't do it like that.
It's better off in the boot to be honest, especially if there is a heater channel under the seat (don't remember if there is on a GDB)
Most wiring kits come with a 5m RCA so you would have to buy another as you don't want it coiled up if you can help it.
Get the power feed through where ever you can, I think there is an easy one near the brake servo, although this is on the opposite side to the battery. wrap it in black insulation tape where you can so it doesn't stand out.
Yes, usually a sandwich with a board. I have seen them fitted with velcro before, and it seemed to work although I wouldn't do it like that.
It's better off in the boot to be honest, especially if there is a heater channel under the seat (don't remember if there is on a GDB)
Most wiring kits come with a 5m RCA so you would have to buy another as you don't want it coiled up if you can help it.
Get the power feed through where ever you can, I think there is an easy one near the brake servo, although this is on the opposite side to the battery. wrap it in black insulation tape where you can so it doesn't stand out.
Edited by RA500 on Sunday 22 September 15:41
OK quick update for you all. It seems that a combination of road noise and my Milltek full system is causing the lack of low end bass when driving, more on the tyre noise really. I reset the HU and did some experimentation with the bass frequency and stopped it spreading out so much. After I did this I can get a fair amount of bass at around 60Hz and without too much vibration as well. Quite a contrast to the standard speakers and head unit as you'd expect. I have left the stock tweeters in place but they'll be removed once I'm using a dedicated amp.
On the road though, the bottom end of the spectrum is lost so I suppose I've got a couple of options. Firstly as Adam suggested get some better wiring in place and add some power with an amp. There's a good JL that matches my speakers pretty well so I may get that but I'm going to look at some sound deadening next weekend and Dynamat the doors.
On the road though, the bottom end of the spectrum is lost so I suppose I've got a couple of options. Firstly as Adam suggested get some better wiring in place and add some power with an amp. There's a good JL that matches my speakers pretty well so I may get that but I'm going to look at some sound deadening next weekend and Dynamat the doors.
The road roar in Subaru's can drown out a lot of the bass. Don't forget that your speakers will need running in if they're new. You should find that the bass becomes more extended and the treble sweeter once they've been used for a few weeks. I find that they always sound a bit harsh straight out of the box, hi fi speakers included.
Are they mounted solidly? As you know I've soundproofed parts of my Forester, but to do a proper job would really involve doing the whole floor right up to the bulkhead.
How are the speakers? These were one of my options but I ended up going for the DB Audio Trex.
Are they mounted solidly? As you know I've soundproofed parts of my Forester, but to do a proper job would really involve doing the whole floor right up to the bulkhead.
How are the speakers? These were one of my options but I ended up going for the DB Audio Trex.
The speakers are very good and there is no movement on the spacers or the stock back mounts.
I've had JL Audio before and even though they're full-range they do offer a pretty good range. Rock music is especially good and if it's any indication I had the lowest MPG in the STI since I put them in
Dynamat will be going in next weekend and I'll do as much as I can behind the speaker as well. Running in period was in my head too so I haven't pushed it to silly volume yet or increased the bass adjustment passed +3.
Once they've warmed up and the deadening is in I'll report back.
I've had JL Audio before and even though they're full-range they do offer a pretty good range. Rock music is especially good and if it's any indication I had the lowest MPG in the STI since I put them in
Dynamat will be going in next weekend and I'll do as much as I can behind the speaker as well. Running in period was in my head too so I haven't pushed it to silly volume yet or increased the bass adjustment passed +3.
Once they've warmed up and the deadening is in I'll report back.
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