RWD cornering tips / countersteer help

[zaibatsu]

Chasing some pointers from you experts.
I've owned a turbo FR layout car for 3 years now, but grew up on FF and that's what I'm used to.

Slowly I've worked out so do's / don'ts from spinning and almost crashing, mostly in the early days.

My general rules now are
- Try to select correct gear and entry speed before corner
- Maintain speed and don't accelerate before apex
- Accelerate after apex, trade throttle for less steering lock
- In general keep it on the edge of wanting to understeer without actually understeering

Following these steps seems to keep me from dying. I've got Federal RSRs (140 treadwear) and can get around corners reasonably fast without the car sliding.

However I've noticed most RWD drivers can quickly respond to corner exit oversteer with a quick opposite lock response. Watching any Best Motoring touge videos on youtube shows drivers who are constantly jumping on and off the throttle mid corner (an extreme example) but are able to keep the car from spinning with really quick countersteer corrections.

I find if I pre-empt some oversteer occuring when exiting a corner (eg putting down a bit too much power) I can give the wheel a quick jerk of countersteer and keep things legit.

However if it ever catches me by surprise (usually a result of breaking one of my rules), I have a tendency to jump off the throttle as a natural response which is obviously very dangerous.

I want to get better at countersteering quickly, and I want to kerb my natural tendency to jump off the throttle, and instead keep my foot level when a little bit of power oversteer occurs - especially if it happens unexpectedly.

Can anyone give any tips on how they learnt? Particularly those who may have transitioned from FF where you can get away with more ragged inputs and corrections with much less finesse (in my experience). I know practice makes perfect but I'm hoping for some more specific advice.

Thanks much in advance.

[thiscocks]

Advanced driving >>>>>

coming off thottle is correct thing to do.

Edited by thiscocks on Wednesday 9th October 16:20

Edited by thiscocks on Wednesday 9th October 16:20

[300bhp/ton]

thiscocks said:

Advanced driving >>>>>

coming off thottle is correct thing to do.

Edited by thiscocks on Wednesday 9th October 16:20

Edited by thiscocks on Wednesday 9th October 16:20

Really? Surprised at that, as the sudden weight transfer to the front wheels of a car with the rear already sliding is likely to induce a spin.


OP - have you considered doing a drift day or tuition? Would be the perfect place to learn.

A rally day in an old Escort or even doing some autotesting in a RWD car would likely be of huge experience and worth.

[J4CKO]

I would suggest finding a track/drift day and avoid practising on the road, perhaps slow down a little and dont worry about apexes and countersteering on a public road. The idea is to practice it on track so shoudl it happen on the road, when "Making Progress" you can deal with it.

[Dr Doofenshmirtz]

Save it for the track young man!
(your post suggests you're experimenting on public roads rather than the track - apologies if I have misunderstood)

[monthefish]

thiscocks said:

Advanced driving >>>>>

coming off thottle is correct thing to do.

Edited by thiscocks on Wednesday 9th October 16:20

Edited by thiscocks on Wednesday 9th October 16:20

Maintaining throttle, or coming off the throttle gradually, whilst applying opposite lock, is the correct thing to do.


This is a good video showing what happens if tyou come off the throttle sharply:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20X7PNml_-Q

(I suspect if he'd come off the throttle gradually, and ridden out the slide, I reckon it could have been saved - easier said than done though, and not saying I could definitely have saved it though)



In answer to your question, I also grew up on FF and when I bought my first RWD car I booked a session with Don Palmer. Expensive, but very worthwhile, and set me up nicely for RWD ownership.

[J4CKO]

Isnt that known as trail braking, when used as coming off the throttle onto the brake, i.e. that transition, it takes some practice but not on the road, you need to be going fairly fast to make any difference, concentrate on smoothness, learn how to heel and toe, I find that helps stabilise a rwd car, i.e. not just jamming it down a gear and introducing the drag of the engine which is effectively braking

[HustleRussell]

300bhp/ton said:

thiscocks said:

Advanced driving

coming off thottle is correct thing to do.

Really? Surprised at that, as the sudden weight transfer to the front wheels of a car with the rear already sliding is likely to induce a spin.


OP - have you considered doing a drift day or tuition? Would be the perfect place to learn.

A rally day in an old Escort or even doing some autotesting in a RWD car would likely be of huge experience and worth.

The official line on controlling oversteer (or understeer for that matter), is basically 'the driver must remove the input which caused the vehicle to under / oversteer in the first place'.

The cause is often too much throttle... but the cause can also be too much braking after the turn-in point, or too much steering angle applied for a given speed / condition.

The answer is never to get off the throttle suddenly. Easing off the throttle while applying opposite lock is often the way, but doing so requires practice which is where your skid pan day / drift day / track day / advanced driving etc practice comes into it.

J4CKO said:

Isnt that known as trail braking

Nah. Trail braking is a braking technique used to transfer load to the front axle at or after the turn-in point.

[ian_touring]

zaibatsu said:

you experts

This might be where you're needing to change your thinking?

[zaibatsu]

I was just looking for discussion on technique only, let's stick to that.

I'm relatively comfortable with not braking or backing off completely mid corner, and relatively comfortable with trading steering for throttle on exit. Every downshift is rev-matched or heel-toed if braking at the same time, comfortable with all that.

Still, I'm under no delusion about my driving skill and have a bad habit of letting intuition take over if/when things get hairy, and I end up sequentially breaking all my rules (which ends up in excessive forward weight transfer and a throttle-off slide). If I follow them in the first place I don't end up in this situation, but I'd like to get better at mitigating sudden oversteer instead of avoiding it altogether.

I've vaguely established that if there's power oversteer on corner exit, a quick (i.e. high velocity but low amplitude) countersteer movement will prevent a spin. It seems that if you counter too slow, you end up needing greater steering amplitude to correct, and end up in a mess. Does anyone have any thoughts on how they learnt this process, any tips etc?

Anything you do to avoid jumping off the throttle and smashing the brake when things start to get hairy?
Or is it all about exercising control in a way that the back only comes out if you explicitly "tell" it to? Thus you are 100% prepared to respond correctly (thus not freak out and do the opposite).

As I said I've noticed that (very) good RWD drivers can afford far jerkier throttle/brake inputs because they can correct for mass transfer ill effects with fast steering. I'd love to learn this even if it's a slow learning process, as it seems like a great skill to have.

ian_touring said:

This might be where you're needing to change your thinking?

The wise one always chimes in last.

300bhp/ton said:

the sudden weight transfer to the front wheels of a car with the rear already sliding is likely to induce a spin.
OP - have you considered doing a drift day or tuition? Would be the perfect place to learn.
A rally day in an old Escort or even doing some autotesting in a RWD car would likely be of huge experience and worth.

Agreed on all counts, just don't have the time at the moment, so will have learn slowly and more passively for now.

[Prof Prolapse]

Personally I think you're over analysing this. There's quite a few variables to consider so I think it's just worth getting some practice in off the public highway before deliberately losing traction elsewhere.

The best thing to do is get yourself down to the local car park after hours when it's been snowing. You'll learn more in an hour than a year on the roads.

Edited by Prof Prolapse on Thursday 10th October 00:49

[zaibatsu]

I live in a place without snow, perhaps thankfully.

As for over-analysing - not even close - but perhaps I was mistaken in thinking this might be the forum to discuss this.

I've found that coming up with a practical set of rules and applying them has been great in terms of cornering not only faster but also more safely (this is specifically in the case of the FR layout turbo car). I can now drive closer to the traction limits more consistently.

However there are still skills I don't have and I just wanted to hear if anyone has gone through this process (with some degree of awareness). I'd love to hear a story or two.

Following intuition is NOT ideal in this particular case in my opinion, unless you have a strong intuitive background of controlled / purposely limited throttle responses combined with fast steering responses. I don't.

[GravelBen]

Good on you for actually thinking about your driving, the majority of people never bother!

As far as training reflex action goes (ie not doing the panic / lift off the throttle / overcorrect thing), its mostly down to practice and getting the correct response ingrained at lower speeds so that it happens instinctively under pressure.

Something thats often missed is your grip on the wheel - many people hold the wheel too tightly, and because of that lose a lot of the feedback about when the car is getting close to the limits of grip. Whether you do that or not I don't know, but figured it was worth mentioning - if you can feel it before the car lets go then it isn't a surprise and you're less likely to panic and overreact.

Also, how is your driving position? Should be comfortable, balanced, not having to reach too far or lean a shoulder forward off the seat to make a large steering movement. Important to have the basics right as a foundation for the advanced stuff. I (along with many others) find a 9-3 hand position much more intuitive than the traditional 10-2, partially because the centre of rotation is directly between your hands which keeps inputs balanced.

[Prof Prolapse]

Here's a tip. Don't ask for advice from people who genuinely know more than you, and then be an ahole to them when they take the time to try and offer you advice.

Now last time I went around Switzerland, they had snow, why don't you fk off and find some?

[XJ Flyer]

monthefish said:

thiscocks said:

Advanced driving >>>>>

coming off thottle is correct thing to do.

Edited by thiscocks on Wednesday 9th October 16:20

Edited by thiscocks on Wednesday 9th October 16:20

Maintaining throttle, or coming off the throttle gradually, whilst applying opposite lock, is the correct thing to do.


This is a good video showing what happens if tyou come off the throttle sharply:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20X7PNml_-Q

(I suspect if he'd come off the throttle gradually, and ridden out the slide, I reckon it could have been saved - easier said than done though, and not saying I could definitely have saved it though)

The way I saw it the problem there was just too much entry speed even for a front engined car let alone a rear engined one.The spectators who were filming it seemed to know more than the driver in shouting brake long before entry.In general the easiest way to get through a corner is to get all the braking done and downshifting to the correct gear for the exit 'before' entry/turn in while the wheels are straight.Then just use smooth and not excessive throttle and steering inputs to make sure that the rear wheels follow the front wheels IE you don't want to be doing any braking or cause any oversteer whatsoever through or mid corner.A 'limited' amount of power oversteer on the exit is as much as you want although even that needs to be kept to a minimum.Anything else is just asking for the typical tankslapper issues which the unlucky Porsche driver suffered.IE if things are getting to the point where you think it's 'hairy' then your entry speed is too high.

Edited by XJ Flyer on Thursday 10th October 03:41

[Kawasicki]

my tips
1) use your eyes, look as far ahead as you can push yourself to do
2) work on your awareness of speed
3) stay relaxed
4) steer to keep the vehicle on a path that you want...do not let the vehicle do the driving. Sometimes that means you don't even need to countersteer past centre (my favourite), sometimes it means you need to countersteer a little, sometimes it means you have to pile on huge steer angles (not my favourite).
5) a very common mistake is to wait too long before winding the countersteer off...watch for that, it is mainly taken care of when you follow tip 4!

[vrooom]

Some car requuires bit different driving skills. e.g. FR car with locked diff, open diff?, LSD and tyre breakaway characterisc...

[Chapppers]

ian_touring said:

zaibatsu said:

you experts

This might be where you're needing to change your thinking?

lolololololololololololololol, quite.

[Herman Toothrot]

Find an outdoor kart track and go karting in the rain, you'll soon learn.

[cptsideways]

By your post it looks like you have the basics spot on, its the practice bit that is next & only practice & or instruction will see you through.

The advice of lifting off, mid corner is a brilliant way to put a car into a spin especially in slippery conditions.


What car is it? as most rwd cars have a tendency to do the countersteering for you, its called castor!! but most people fight the wheel instead.