Madly impressive demo of Koenigsegg stability control (KES)
Discussion
Demo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SywqgH7n-5g
Matt Farah recollects what it's like going sideways at a 100 mph with a suicidal driver (starting @12:35):
http://www.thesmokingtire.com/2013/podcast-86-conc...
They've actually had this for while in varying complexity but it's not been standard before MY2013 and not as refined in the early versions as in the Agera. Brake calipers, gearbox, e-diff, suspension, chassis, ECUs and algorithms are developed in-house. ABS is from Bosch and works in conjunction with Koenigsegg's e-diff, ECUs and algorithms. Comes with 5 different modes supposedly ranging from hatchling to suicide.
"The Koenigsegg Electronic Differential (E-Diff) is lighter and faster, compared to traditional E-Diff solutions. The difference lies in the fact that Koenigsegg has retained a limited slip differential with plates and ramps with a built-in amount of analogue limited slip functionality. This means that the active hydraulic element can be smaller, more compact and therefore faster and lighter compared to traditional E-Diff solutions. The analogue part of the functionality also has zero processing time as it reacts directly. The analogue system is supplemented by a digital active system.
This way Koenigsegg has obtained one of the lightest and fastest E-Diff solution on the market. Furthermore the Koenigsegg developed algorithms that control the E-Diff, takes input from; throttle angle, g-force, steering wheel angle, yaw angle, car speed, engine rpm, selected gear, plus weather condition.
The way all this data is analysed and how the car reacts to this data also makes the Koenigsegg E-Diff unique and that makes the Agera very safe on the limit and improves performance and feel.
The Koenigsegg E-diff works in harmony with the new traction control system that is the fastest reacting in the industry, with auto adapt functionality to different road conditions and driving styles as well as several manual settings."
http://www.koenigsegg.com/press-releases/take-acti...
CvK on their electronic differential, gearbox and ECUs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QJlL0zNdMA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvHDdNzqdTs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SywqgH7n-5g
Matt Farah recollects what it's like going sideways at a 100 mph with a suicidal driver (starting @12:35):
http://www.thesmokingtire.com/2013/podcast-86-conc...
They've actually had this for while in varying complexity but it's not been standard before MY2013 and not as refined in the early versions as in the Agera. Brake calipers, gearbox, e-diff, suspension, chassis, ECUs and algorithms are developed in-house. ABS is from Bosch and works in conjunction with Koenigsegg's e-diff, ECUs and algorithms. Comes with 5 different modes supposedly ranging from hatchling to suicide.
"The Koenigsegg Electronic Differential (E-Diff) is lighter and faster, compared to traditional E-Diff solutions. The difference lies in the fact that Koenigsegg has retained a limited slip differential with plates and ramps with a built-in amount of analogue limited slip functionality. This means that the active hydraulic element can be smaller, more compact and therefore faster and lighter compared to traditional E-Diff solutions. The analogue part of the functionality also has zero processing time as it reacts directly. The analogue system is supplemented by a digital active system.
This way Koenigsegg has obtained one of the lightest and fastest E-Diff solution on the market. Furthermore the Koenigsegg developed algorithms that control the E-Diff, takes input from; throttle angle, g-force, steering wheel angle, yaw angle, car speed, engine rpm, selected gear, plus weather condition.
The way all this data is analysed and how the car reacts to this data also makes the Koenigsegg E-Diff unique and that makes the Agera very safe on the limit and improves performance and feel.
The Koenigsegg E-diff works in harmony with the new traction control system that is the fastest reacting in the industry, with auto adapt functionality to different road conditions and driving styles as well as several manual settings."
http://www.koenigsegg.com/press-releases/take-acti...
CvK on their electronic differential, gearbox and ECUs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QJlL0zNdMA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvHDdNzqdTs
Impressive that they engineer in house their own transmission and electronics systems. Why don't they go the whole hog and do their own engine too?
Although I doubt this approach does reliability many favors. There are numerous off the shelf systems that will do the same (likely much better) more reliably for a fraction of the cost, and can be custom programmed just as easily.
Admirable that they do it, however there's a reason equivalent systems from the likes of Bosch et al cost billions to develop.
Although I doubt this approach does reliability many favors. There are numerous off the shelf systems that will do the same (likely much better) more reliably for a fraction of the cost, and can be custom programmed just as easily.
Admirable that they do it, however there's a reason equivalent systems from the likes of Bosch et al cost billions to develop.
dvs_dave said:
Impressive that they engineer in house their own transmission and electronics systems. Why don't they go the whole hog and do their own engine too?
They have:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzVc13UF2s8
dvs_dave said:
Although I doubt this approach does reliability many favors. There are numerous off the shelf systems that will do the same (likely much better) more reliably for a fraction of the cost, and can be custom programmed just as easily.
Admirable that they do it, however there's a reason equivalent systems from the likes of Bosch et al cost billions to develop.
I think you're missing the point and being a little bit overly critical, mate. Like I wrote they use a foundation of Bosch's ABS, which naturally includes all the sensors and basic traction control et al (the pricey bits), then tunes it with their own algorithms, suspension, e-diff etc for their specific set-up. What's impressive is not so much that they have a stability control that works but the level in which it does it which ofc is enabled by the overall package and the customization they've put into it. It's very much possible to buy an off the shelf system that will save the car with basic ESC functionality but odds are that if you apply the amount of uncontrolled lock the driver does at 70 or a 100 mph it will slow to a grinding halt rather than carrying the speed in the manner the Agera does. If you have another example of a car doing the same exercise with the composure and speed as in the clip I'd love to see it, especially so if it's a RWD car from a company Koenigsegg's size. Admirable that they do it, however there's a reason equivalent systems from the likes of Bosch et al cost billions to develop.
And speaking of "big vs small" Bosch is actually working with Cargine/Koenigsegg in a joint effort on the Scuderi Engine where Cargine/Koenigseggs free valve patent is central to the project. The whole venture is based on licensing from Cargine/Koenigsegg.
"Partners
The Scuderi Group has partnered with several automotive engineering companies to assist with engineering the Scuderi engine's complementary components. German automotive supply company Mahle GmbH is working on the pistons, Swedish engine developer Cargine Engineering AB is assisting with the air-activated valves, Denver-based Gates Corporation is engineering the belts, and Germany-based Schaeffler Group is contributing to the valve train assembly. The engineering division of Germany's Robert Bosch GmbH is working on the timing mechanism of the engine.
Agreements
Various manufacturers, including Honda, Daimler AG, Fiat, and PSA Peugeot Citroën, have signed non-disclosure agreements with Scuderi Group. A Daimler AG scientist familiar with the matter told The Wall Street Journal that the design has potential."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scuderi_engine
CvK explaining the free valve technology:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bch5B23_pu0
PSA Peugot Citroen expects it to be ready by 2016.
Edited by Tom73 on Thursday 17th October 07:18
EH? That "stability control" video shows an experienced driver controlling the car, and have a look at how much opposite lock is required to prevent the car from spinning!
A true stability dominant system can prevent the car spinning without driver input. (i.e a repeatable lane change test where the handwheel is released after the first two inputs)
But, stability control is like chassis set up, one persons "stable" is another persons "wildly unstable". The reason the Bosch systems cost millions is not really the code in the ecu (although that is clever) but the validation and application of that code to a specific application.
The funny thing for me is that the video has big text saying "try that in a veyron" all over it, as if it were some big deal. No, the fantastic thing is that these days you can try that in <£10k worth of Aygo or whatever and still have the same systems working with you!
A true stability dominant system can prevent the car spinning without driver input. (i.e a repeatable lane change test where the handwheel is released after the first two inputs)
But, stability control is like chassis set up, one persons "stable" is another persons "wildly unstable". The reason the Bosch systems cost millions is not really the code in the ecu (although that is clever) but the validation and application of that code to a specific application.
The funny thing for me is that the video has big text saying "try that in a veyron" all over it, as if it were some big deal. No, the fantastic thing is that these days you can try that in <£10k worth of Aygo or whatever and still have the same systems working with you!
Max_Torque said:
EH? That "stability control" video shows an experienced driver controlling the car, and have a look at how much opposite lock is required to prevent the car from spinning!
A true stability dominant system can prevent the car spinning without driver input. (i.e a repeatable lane change test where the handwheel is released after the first two inputs)
But, stability control is like chassis set up, one persons "stable" is another persons "wildly unstable". The reason the Bosch systems cost millions is not really the code in the ecu (although that is clever) but the validation and application of that code to a specific application.
The funny thing for me is that the video has big text saying "try that in a veyron" all over it, as if it were some big deal. No, the fantastic thing is that these days you can try that in <£10k worth of Aygo or whatever and still have the same systems working with you!
Is he applying opposite lock, or just violently wagging the steering wheel, whilst the stability control keeps it all together?A true stability dominant system can prevent the car spinning without driver input. (i.e a repeatable lane change test where the handwheel is released after the first two inputs)
But, stability control is like chassis set up, one persons "stable" is another persons "wildly unstable". The reason the Bosch systems cost millions is not really the code in the ecu (although that is clever) but the validation and application of that code to a specific application.
The funny thing for me is that the video has big text saying "try that in a veyron" all over it, as if it were some big deal. No, the fantastic thing is that these days you can try that in <£10k worth of Aygo or whatever and still have the same systems working with you!
robinessex said:
Max_Torque said:
EH? That "stability control" video shows an experienced driver controlling the car, and have a look at how much opposite lock is required to prevent the car from spinning!
A true stability dominant system can prevent the car spinning without driver input. (i.e a repeatable lane change test where the handwheel is released after the first two inputs)
But, stability control is like chassis set up, one persons "stable" is another persons "wildly unstable". The reason the Bosch systems cost millions is not really the code in the ecu (although that is clever) but the validation and application of that code to a specific application.
The funny thing for me is that the video has big text saying "try that in a veyron" all over it, as if it were some big deal. No, the fantastic thing is that these days you can try that in <£10k worth of Aygo or whatever and still have the same systems working with you!
Is he applying opposite lock, or just violently wagging the steering wheel, whilst the stability control keeps it all together?A true stability dominant system can prevent the car spinning without driver input. (i.e a repeatable lane change test where the handwheel is released after the first two inputs)
But, stability control is like chassis set up, one persons "stable" is another persons "wildly unstable". The reason the Bosch systems cost millions is not really the code in the ecu (although that is clever) but the validation and application of that code to a specific application.
The funny thing for me is that the video has big text saying "try that in a veyron" all over it, as if it were some big deal. No, the fantastic thing is that these days you can try that in <£10k worth of Aygo or whatever and still have the same systems working with you!
robinessex said:
Max_Torque said:
EH? That "stability control" video shows an experienced driver controlling the car, and have a look at how much opposite lock is required to prevent the car from spinning!
A true stability dominant system can prevent the car spinning without driver input. (i.e a repeatable lane change test where the handwheel is released after the first two inputs)
But, stability control is like chassis set up, one persons "stable" is another persons "wildly unstable". The reason the Bosch systems cost millions is not really the code in the ecu (although that is clever) but the validation and application of that code to a specific application.
The funny thing for me is that the video has big text saying "try that in a veyron" all over it, as if it were some big deal. No, the fantastic thing is that these days you can try that in <£10k worth of Aygo or whatever and still have the same systems working with you!
Is he applying opposite lock, or just violently wagging the steering wheel, whilst the stability control keeps it all together?A true stability dominant system can prevent the car spinning without driver input. (i.e a repeatable lane change test where the handwheel is released after the first two inputs)
But, stability control is like chassis set up, one persons "stable" is another persons "wildly unstable". The reason the Bosch systems cost millions is not really the code in the ecu (although that is clever) but the validation and application of that code to a specific application.
The funny thing for me is that the video has big text saying "try that in a veyron" all over it, as if it were some big deal. No, the fantastic thing is that these days you can try that in <£10k worth of Aygo or whatever and still have the same systems working with you!
Of course, without the SAS switched on, the same inputs may have spun the vehicle, we simply don't know. They need to do the industry std high speed "lane change" test, with the system on and off to really demonstrate if it's any good (which i'm sure it is btw)
TheJimi said:
robinessex said:
Max_Torque said:
EH? That "stability control" video shows an experienced driver controlling the car, and have a look at how much opposite lock is required to prevent the car from spinning!
A true stability dominant system can prevent the car spinning without driver input. (i.e a repeatable lane change test where the handwheel is released after the first two inputs)
But, stability control is like chassis set up, one persons "stable" is another persons "wildly unstable". The reason the Bosch systems cost millions is not really the code in the ecu (although that is clever) but the validation and application of that code to a specific application.
The funny thing for me is that the video has big text saying "try that in a veyron" all over it, as if it were some big deal. No, the fantastic thing is that these days you can try that in <£10k worth of Aygo or whatever and still have the same systems working with you!
Is he applying opposite lock, or just violently wagging the steering wheel, whilst the stability control keeps it all together?A true stability dominant system can prevent the car spinning without driver input. (i.e a repeatable lane change test where the handwheel is released after the first two inputs)
But, stability control is like chassis set up, one persons "stable" is another persons "wildly unstable". The reason the Bosch systems cost millions is not really the code in the ecu (although that is clever) but the validation and application of that code to a specific application.
The funny thing for me is that the video has big text saying "try that in a veyron" all over it, as if it were some big deal. No, the fantastic thing is that these days you can try that in <£10k worth of Aygo or whatever and still have the same systems working with you!
And clearly they do not need to "do the industry std high speed lane change test, with the system on and off to really demonstrate if it's any good (which i'm sure it is btw)" because surely any idiot could tell you it's not a formal test but a customer or in this case reporter demo? And for those who bothered to listen to the podcast that was linked in the OP - which I actually spent some time and effort putting together so those who were actually interested wouldn't have to search out the answers themselves to questions that might arise like "why didn't they do it with the system off?" or "don't you think Bosch could do a better job at it?" - it would also be perfectly clear that this demo was done in several different modes as well as turned off for comparison. What we saw were obviously the most interesting bits and probably not created to undergo the scrutiny of a internet prosecution. I suppose a case of besserwisser rarely do come with a great deal of patience though so maybe next time a easy to understand Q&A, or alternatively a pictorial, will be in order for those too clever to process information readily available to them.
Tom73 said:
That's what I and the vast majority of other enthusiasts saw too... Not to mention he goes from near full lock in both directions to "return the handwheel to straight ahead" without smaller counter steers to settle the swerve. He does it three times in a row as well for those who didn't care enough to watch the actual video so a great big bravo to him if he nailed them all. Well done, Robert; CvK should give you a raise.
And clearly they do not need to "do the industry std high speed lane change test, with the system on and off to really demonstrate if it's any good (which i'm sure it is btw)" because surely any idiot could tell you it's not a formal test but a customer or in this case reporter demo? And for those who bothered to listen to the podcast that was linked in the OP - which I actually spent some time and effort putting together so those who were actually interested wouldn't have to search out the answers themselves to questions that might arise like "why didn't they do it with the system off?" or "don't you think Bosch could do a better job at it?" - it would also be perfectly clear that this demo was done in several different modes as well as turned off for comparison. What we saw were obviously the most interesting bits and probably not created to undergo the scrutiny of a internet prosecution. I suppose a case of besserwisser rarely do come with a great deal of patience though so maybe next time a easy to understand Q&A, or alternatively a pictorial, will be in order for those too clever to process information readily available to them.
Aaaaaaaaaaand breathe.And clearly they do not need to "do the industry std high speed lane change test, with the system on and off to really demonstrate if it's any good (which i'm sure it is btw)" because surely any idiot could tell you it's not a formal test but a customer or in this case reporter demo? And for those who bothered to listen to the podcast that was linked in the OP - which I actually spent some time and effort putting together so those who were actually interested wouldn't have to search out the answers themselves to questions that might arise like "why didn't they do it with the system off?" or "don't you think Bosch could do a better job at it?" - it would also be perfectly clear that this demo was done in several different modes as well as turned off for comparison. What we saw were obviously the most interesting bits and probably not created to undergo the scrutiny of a internet prosecution. I suppose a case of besserwisser rarely do come with a great deal of patience though so maybe next time a easy to understand Q&A, or alternatively a pictorial, will be in order for those too clever to process information readily available to them.
Great cars and I have a lot of admiration for them, especially as they now appear to have moved away from the heavily tuned Ford unit and now have their own bespoke lump. With impressive stats to boot.
However I'm not convinced by your ascertaions that the stability control is anything revolutionary or out of the ordinary over what's available in the mainstream. How does a Bugatti, McLaren, Ferrari, Lotus or Porsche system do in comparison? I suspect they give very similar results.
In segment 2 of the below linked video (about 2:30 in), Tiff is doing similar in a floppy Vauxhall, with similar results...i.e. the car remiains pointing in the right direction and doesn't spin off. Ok it's less responsive, but it's a less responsive type of vehicle so to be expected.
http://www.streetfire.net/video/fifth-gear-21x03-2...
The point being it's disingenuous to suggest that it's all their own bespoke stuff, and better than mainstream kit when in reality neither statement is true. The only bespoke stuff is the mapping and interface ECU's between the rest of the other vehicle systems. But then what manufacturer doesn't do that?
And as for the peurile Veyron comparisons; very entertaining but lets not forget the two are at opposite ends of the spectrum with regards reliability and durability, yet broadly similar in performance (throw in a wet road and see how they compare ) and price.
And is the Agera USA type approved yet? Best not open up that can of worms and consequent publicity disaster eh?
However I'm not convinced by your ascertaions that the stability control is anything revolutionary or out of the ordinary over what's available in the mainstream. How does a Bugatti, McLaren, Ferrari, Lotus or Porsche system do in comparison? I suspect they give very similar results.
In segment 2 of the below linked video (about 2:30 in), Tiff is doing similar in a floppy Vauxhall, with similar results...i.e. the car remiains pointing in the right direction and doesn't spin off. Ok it's less responsive, but it's a less responsive type of vehicle so to be expected.
http://www.streetfire.net/video/fifth-gear-21x03-2...
The point being it's disingenuous to suggest that it's all their own bespoke stuff, and better than mainstream kit when in reality neither statement is true. The only bespoke stuff is the mapping and interface ECU's between the rest of the other vehicle systems. But then what manufacturer doesn't do that?
And as for the peurile Veyron comparisons; very entertaining but lets not forget the two are at opposite ends of the spectrum with regards reliability and durability, yet broadly similar in performance (throw in a wet road and see how they compare
) and price. And is the Agera USA type approved yet? Best not open up that can of worms and consequent publicity disaster eh?
dvs_dave said:
Great cars and I have a lot of admiration for them
So what seems to be the problem then? Enjoy the video and the podcast. You are welcome.dvs_dave said:
Ok it's less responsive, but it's a less responsive type of vehicle so to be expected.
Yes I agree, you are reaching. And being overly negative in a very straightforward topic. dvs_dave said:
And as for the peurile Veyron comparisons; very entertaining but lets not forget the two are at opposite ends of the spectrum with regards reliability and durability, yet broadly similar in performance (throw in a wet road and see how they compare ) and price.
Those comparisons aren't mine so you're the one being puerile, for whatever reasons. ) and price.dvs_dave said:
And is the Agera USA type approved yet? Best not open up that can of worms and consequent publicity disaster eh?
I believe the first US car is currently in it's final stages. The homologation was finalized early 2013. It's not a bad effort considering that Pagani finalizes their homologation by googling and copying Koenigsegg's data plate.http://teamspeed.com/forums/supercars/80896-pagani...
And if you're referring to this clown the overwhelming public consesus is that the man is a gomeril.
http://jalopnik.com/guy-who-called-koenigsegg-ager...
By the looks of it he could've had use for a Agera but sadly no such luck since thanks to this entitled brat Koenigsegg no longer sells cars to anyone who can afford one.
I'm sorry for the cliché, but I can't think of a better way to express it; Doesn't it look a bit Playstation? The supercar for someone who never wants to add a dab of oppo. Then again I suppose they know their market and very few of them will be skilled drivers who are buying the car for the driving experience.
Maybe they could spend a few quid on someone who knows more about interior trim textures. The light aircraft alloy centre console does a great job of imitating Amstrad circa 1983.
Maybe they could spend a few quid on someone who knows more about interior trim textures. The light aircraft alloy centre console does a great job of imitating Amstrad circa 1983.
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