Is the Porsche 996 as bad as the purists make it out to be?
Discussion
Got a friend who has £8500 to spend on a sporty car. He needs seats in the back for his small son so has decided on a 911. The 996 seems the best way to go because it seems a well looked after relatively high mileage car can be bought for that kind of money.
A few questions...
1)Do the purists dislike the car purely because a) The first watercooled 911 & b)It's looks?
2)Is it a mistake spending £8500 on a 90,000 mile+ car (albeit with a FSH) & why?
3)What are the engine problems associated with the 996's, will the early cars need an engine rebuild if they haven't had one already?
A few questions...
1)Do the purists dislike the car purely because a) The first watercooled 911 & b)It's looks?
2)Is it a mistake spending £8500 on a 90,000 mile+ car (albeit with a FSH) & why?
3)What are the engine problems associated with the 996's, will the early cars need an engine rebuild if they haven't had one already?
Sadly I don't own one. But anyone stupid enough to hate a car just because it differs to the previous models, well their opinion certainly isn't worth listening too.
Engine problems, I think there is a sticky in this forum worth reading and a lot of info if you want to spend a bit of time on Google. My own personal view is, that there is indeed a lot of over hype on the internet and that you'd have to be relatively unlucky to actually suffer engine failure. Porsche managed to sell quite a large number of 996's and Boxsters and I suspect the total amount that have had engine rebuilds is probably fairly small.
That said, I do think it is a real concern to be very aware of, because should the engine go, then it simply isn't going to be a cheap fix. On the flip side, you could say this is no more risky than buying something like a AJPV8 TVR or a 6 pot one.
I think if you do some browsing on YouTube you may find some Tiff Needell videos of the 996 and he always seemed to praise them. On a personal note, if I was getting one, I'd want an early headlight version as I think they look better.
Engine problems, I think there is a sticky in this forum worth reading and a lot of info if you want to spend a bit of time on Google. My own personal view is, that there is indeed a lot of over hype on the internet and that you'd have to be relatively unlucky to actually suffer engine failure. Porsche managed to sell quite a large number of 996's and Boxsters and I suspect the total amount that have had engine rebuilds is probably fairly small.
That said, I do think it is a real concern to be very aware of, because should the engine go, then it simply isn't going to be a cheap fix. On the flip side, you could say this is no more risky than buying something like a AJPV8 TVR or a 6 pot one.
I think if you do some browsing on YouTube you may find some Tiff Needell videos of the 996 and he always seemed to praise them. On a personal note, if I was getting one, I'd want an early headlight version as I think they look better.
On pretty much every none emotional parameter it's better than the air cooled cars apart from one-build quality. That's not to say they were built crap, just using cheap components.
The propensity for engine failure doesn't help either.
Design wise I think the early pre face lifted cars have a certain charm
The propensity for engine failure doesn't help either.
Design wise I think the early pre face lifted cars have a certain charm
No, it's nowhere near as bad as the purists make out. It may not be as 'pure' as the earlier cars, but that's progress for you - see the hoo-ha over the 991 for example.
The engine problem on the earlier 996s is likely to have happened by now, so is less of a worry, especially on higher mileage cars - if the clutch has been replaced (likely on cars he'll be looking at) then a good owner would have had the seals replaced and problem solved.
Bear in mind it will cost more to run - hence the cheap asking prices - but otherwise it would be worth a punt in my book.
The engine problem on the earlier 996s is likely to have happened by now, so is less of a worry, especially on higher mileage cars - if the clutch has been replaced (likely on cars he'll be looking at) then a good owner would have had the seals replaced and problem solved.
Bear in mind it will cost more to run - hence the cheap asking prices - but otherwise it would be worth a punt in my book.
Reliability is the only reason many people don't buy them myself included, they would have to get to £4k before I'd take the risk of having to treat it as disposable when to fix a lunched engine is £10,000 for replacement by Porsche or anywhere between £4k and £7k at an independent.
People claim the issues are not that prevalent - you'll change your mind when you try and buy and find every other car has in its history a new or rebuilt engine at some point in its life or suspiciously missing history.
People claim the issues are not that prevalent - you'll change your mind when you try and buy and find every other car has in its history a new or rebuilt engine at some point in its life or suspiciously missing history.
Don1 said:
V8RX7 said:
They aren't as risky as the TVRs 300bhp mentioned.
Horse crap. My 911 is far more unreliable than my TVRs. Far more time in the garage, bits getting replaced and so on.Simply look at the mileages covered in both and on both forums.
You are merely advertising your stupidity.
m7a said:
if the clutch has been replaced (likely on cars he'll be looking at) then a good owner would have had the seals replaced and problem solved.
You are talking about the RMS seal which really isnt a big issue. The main worry with these engines is IMS failure and there is no warning of when this is going to happen (if it is going to happen).I have an early boxster which has a double row IMS bearing. The failure rates of these is said to be less than 1%. The later single row bearings have a failure rate of about 5% (so I'm led to believe). I dont know if the early 996 has a double row bearing like the 986 or not but worth finding out.
You can read all about the issues on the Hartech website.
V8RX7 said:
Then you sir are the fool who's picked a duff car.
Simply look at the mileages covered in both and on both forums.
You are merely advertising your stupidity.
Your failed eloquence mealy displays your propensity for talking rubbish. You clearly don't have the first clue about either marque, so therefore shouldn't be dispensing advice.Simply look at the mileages covered in both and on both forums.
You are merely advertising your stupidity.
Run along now, there's a good man.
Don1 said:
V8RX7 said:
Then you sir are the fool who's picked a duff car.
Simply look at the mileages covered in both and on both forums.
You are merely advertising your stupidity.
Your failed eloquence mealy displays your propensity for talking rubbish. You clearly don't have the first clue about either marque, so therefore shouldn't be dispensing advice.Simply look at the mileages covered in both and on both forums.
You are merely advertising your stupidity.
Run along now, there's a good man.
How about I give you £1000 for every TVR engined car you can find with 100K +
And you give me £1000 for every 100k + 996 I can find ?
You are talking utter rubbish.
I see you and raise you a 200,000 mile TVR. http://www.tvrpower.co.uk/news/slug/200k-mile-t350...
With over 50,000 miles on my 911, and a combined 30,000 on my TVRs, I'd like to think I have a little bit of first hand knowledge.
With over 50,000 miles on my 911, and a combined 30,000 on my TVRs, I'd like to think I have a little bit of first hand knowledge.
Cash or cheque?
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/t...
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/t...
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/t...
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/t...
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/t...
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/t...
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/t...
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/t...
Edited by TIGA84 on Tuesday 19th November 09:15
Edited by TIGA84 on Tuesday 19th November 09:17
Lordbenny said:
A few questions...
1)Do the purists dislike the car purely because a) The first watercooled 911 & b)It's looks?
2)Is it a mistake spending £8500 on a 90,000 mile+ car (albeit with a FSH) & why?
3)What are the engine problems associated with the 996's, will the early cars need an engine rebuild if they haven't had one already?
1) For the majority it's the headlights (esp the pre-facelift lights, which are considered by many to be far to close to those on a Boxster) and the interior (God knows why, because the 993 interior looks like crap to me, and the 997 interior is the 996's with some different buttons), and that it was mass produced and so less exclusive. The water-cooled vs air-cooled thing is for the real hard core bearded anoraks, IMO. 1)Do the purists dislike the car purely because a) The first watercooled 911 & b)It's looks?
2)Is it a mistake spending £8500 on a 90,000 mile+ car (albeit with a FSH) & why?
3)What are the engine problems associated with the 996's, will the early cars need an engine rebuild if they haven't had one already?
2) Not necessarily. But get a proper inspection first (eg by Peter Morgan), consider a boroscope inspection of the cylinders, and have a fund ready for "just in case moments". Bottom line is that you're buying an expensive car which is now cheap. It will be expensive to fix.
3) RMS failure, bore scoring. Have a look at the pdfs on Hartech's website. Find an uncomfortable chair before you start reading. By no means will all 996s suffer an engine failure. Some estimates of failure are around 5% of all cars built. Obv you only read about the bad news on the internet.
The completely vanilla Carrera (2) is a nice pick; good power to weight and lighter with probably better steering feedback than the 4/4S. 911uk is a good resource.
Don1 said:
One other thing - the 996 isn't that loved because the 997 was that much better. If your budget would stretch to a 997, I would go there....
Quite some stretch of his budget though bearing in mind he's looking at spending sub 9k! 
Just to echo what others have said - it's the only 911 I've owned so can't really compare to other versions but certainly need to go in with a realistic view of ownership. Said it before but mine has had one replacement engine from Porsche and one rebuild from Hartech in the 12 years it's been alive - not exactly stellar mileage either having done about 40k on the first one and then 30k before needing a rebuild.
I only have around 7-8 years worth of receipts and bills and they total £32k...and I doubt I've got all the expenses from that period. Whilst I know some will come on here and say you can service them for less than a Ford Fiesta let's just say that an engine rebuild is not pocket money change.
I'd be tempted by the cheapest of 996s with the proviso that you are running a risk. Personally I went the other way and bought a car from an Indy with a year warranty that already had the Hartech rebuild because I wanted the security.
I'd suggest heading over to the Porsche section and reading the Poverty Pork thread for inspiration from braver souls than me
Either way, great cars for the cash but make sure that any back seat passengers really are small!
Greg66 said:
1) For the majority it's the headlights (esp the pre-facelift lights, which are considered by many to be far to close to those on a Boxster) and the interior (God knows why, because the 993 interior looks like crap to me, and the 997 interior is the 996's with some different buttons), and that it was mass produced and so less exclusive. The water-cooled vs air-cooled thing is for the real hard core bearded anoraks, IMO.
2) Not necessarily. But get a proper inspection first (eg by Peter Morgan), consider a boroscope inspection of the cylinders, and have a fund ready for "just in case moments". Bottom line is that you're buying an expensive car which is now cheap. It will be expensive to fix.
3) RMS failure, bore scoring. Have a look at the pdfs on Hartech's website. Find an uncomfortable chair before you start reading. By no means will all 996s suffer an engine failure. Some estimates of failure are around 5% of all cars built. Obv you only read about the bad news on the internet.
The completely vanilla Carrera (2) is a nice pick; good power to weight and lighter with probably better steering feedback than the 4/4S. 911uk is a good resource.
This post about sums it up, needing the rear seats means at 8.5k so long as he can afford the potentially high running costs then it's probably about as good a choice as he could make. with 8.5k personally i'd take a nice e46 M3, i tried a few 996's when i considered changing out of my old 986 S but was disapointed in each one i tried, not sure if that's because the Boxster was so good or the 911 being poor compared to my expectations, however IMO you get a lot better M3 than 996 for 8.5k2) Not necessarily. But get a proper inspection first (eg by Peter Morgan), consider a boroscope inspection of the cylinders, and have a fund ready for "just in case moments". Bottom line is that you're buying an expensive car which is now cheap. It will be expensive to fix.
3) RMS failure, bore scoring. Have a look at the pdfs on Hartech's website. Find an uncomfortable chair before you start reading. By no means will all 996s suffer an engine failure. Some estimates of failure are around 5% of all cars built. Obv you only read about the bad news on the internet.
The completely vanilla Carrera (2) is a nice pick; good power to weight and lighter with probably better steering feedback than the 4/4S. 911uk is a good resource.
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